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Old 01-02-2008, 03:11 PM
Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

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Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:

> Honestly, it's pretty thankless work.

True.

> What we need is a leader. Someone who wants to step up and say "we will
> have Fedora bug days every Friday (or whatever) from this time to this
> time, and I will be in #fedora-qa doing it myself, and teaching everyone
> else who wants to learn."

That is a full time job and that would perhaps be an uphill task

~sankarshan


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Old 01-02-2008, 03:14 PM
Jason L Tibbitts III
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

>>>>> "GD" == Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk@redhat.com> writes:

GD> I would do it, but, um, I'm washing my hair on Fridays.

This is one of the things I wanted to get into once we got the package
review queue back down to size after the initial merge review
explosion. But the review queue is actually growing these days,
so....

- J<

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Old 01-02-2008, 03:15 PM
"Michael Stahnke"
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Jan 2, 2008 10:00 AM, inode0 <inode0@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 2, 2008 9:23 AM, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk@redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 31 Dec 2007, Jon Stanley wrote:
> >
> > > I was triaging old bugs in the FC6 kernel, and got this back form a
> > > reporter. While I agree that a lack of response can be frustrating
> > > to a reporter, I'm not entirely sure what (if anything) we can do
> > > about it.- I'm sending this to marketing-list since it seems to be a
> > > problem for us rather than QA - though probably both, and I'm sure
> > > alot of us are on both.
> >
> > Handling this exact kind of problem is why bug triagers are worth their
> > weight in gold.
> >
> > Because here's the thing: people don't expect all of their bugs to be
> > magically fixed. (Well, some do, but it doesn't make good business sense
> > or good community sense to cater to unreasonable people.)
> >
> > What they *do* expect is for someone to say, "gee, thanks for posting this
> > bug, we'll set the priority accordingly and maybe poke a developer." And
> > we fail pretty miserably at that.
> >
> > Cross-posting to the Fedora advisory board list. Our inability to create
> > and nurture a bug triage community continues to be painful, and our
> > current QA resources within Red Hat continue to be (necessarily)
> > technically focused rather than community focused. This is a problem we
> > need to solve.
>
> I know ideas are a dime a dozen but here is one idea anyway ...
>
> We've been discussing how universities can take a more active role in
> helping students find suitable open source projects to participate in
> and ways they can find a fit between their skills and the needs of
> open source projects elsewhere.
>
> I think it would be immensely helpful to those of us at universities
> who don't have a lot of direct access to students to have one
> marketing tool available to us ... an eye-catching poster that we
> could scatter around campus ... perhaps containing a short list of
> fedora needs that don't require a lot of technical skill and an empty
> spot where we might add some mentor contact information for anyone
> interested.
>
I couldn't agree more. This is a great spot for anyone to step into
the community and make a difference.
> John
>
>
> --
> Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
> Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>

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Old 01-02-2008, 03:19 PM
Jonathan Blandford
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Wed, 2008-01-02 at 10:56 -0500, Tim Burke wrote:

> Is some form of reward or point-based recognition likely to have much
> impact?

It seems to have helped the GNOME triaging situation a lot, though that
is helped more by having strong community leadership.

Thanks,
-Jonathan

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Old 01-02-2008, 03:29 PM
Greg DeKoenigsberg
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, Jonathan Blandford wrote:


On Wed, 2008-01-02 at 10:56 -0500, Tim Burke wrote:


Is some form of reward or point-based recognition likely to have much
impact?


It seems to have helped the GNOME triaging situation a lot, though that
is helped more by having strong community leadership.


And since Luis was adamant about going back to law school, instead of
taking the prestigious Fedora bugmastering job...


--g

--
Greg DeKoenigsberg
Community Development Manager
Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
"To whomsoever much hath been given...
...from him much shall be asked"

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Old 01-02-2008, 04:46 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Jan 2, 2008 7:29 AM, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk@redhat.com> wrote:
> And since Luis was adamant about going back to law school, instead of
> taking the prestigious Fedora bugmastering job...

So... how..where.. do we advertise and recruit for a volunteer
leadership position that we all agree we need (and one that none of
the usual suspects wants to do?)

What completely unrealistic promises do I need to make to get someone
to do this position for 6 months?

If I promised them a one of a kind t-shirt would that help? Sort of
like the Tour De France Gold Jersey? We hand out a gold bugmaster
t-shirt every 6 months to someone brave enough to take the lead in
that area for that period of time?

Can we commit to giving the bug master significant billing in the
release notes for the release coming out at the end of his/her 6 month
tenure?

-jef"Don't look at me I tried to do that job back during FC1,2 and
like all good middle management I've succeeded by failing
upward"spaleta

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Old 01-02-2008, 04:53 PM
Greg DeKoenigsberg
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote:


On Jan 2, 2008 7:29 AM, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk@redhat.com> wrote:

And since Luis was adamant about going back to law school, instead of
taking the prestigious Fedora bugmastering job...


So... how..where.. do we advertise and recruit for a volunteer
leadership position that we all agree we need (and one that none of the
usual suspects wants to do?)


What completely unrealistic promises do I need to make to get someone
to do this position for 6 months?


Well, here's the truth, as I see it. This may or may not be an
inducement, and may need to be wordsmithed, but I think it's correct:


Some positions at Red Hat don't materialize until the community proves
their value -- and then the chief deliverer of said value says "I'll stop
delivering all this value if you don't hire me." Bugmastery is probably
the *perfect* example of this kind of position.



If I promised them a one of a kind t-shirt would that help? Sort of
like the Tour De France Gold Jersey? We hand out a gold bugmaster
t-shirt every 6 months to someone brave enough to take the lead in
that area for that period of time?


See the world. A free trip to every FUDCon worldwide to speak and
recruit.



Can we commit to giving the bug master significant billing in the
release notes for the release coming out at the end of his/her 6 month
tenure?


Sure.

--g

--
Greg DeKoenigsberg
Community Development Manager
Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
"To whomsoever much hath been given...
...from him much shall be asked"

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Old 01-02-2008, 07:25 PM
"Elliot Lee"
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Jan 2, 2008 8:04 AM, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk@redhat.com> wrote:

> Honestly, it's pretty thankless work.
>
> What we need is a leader. Someone who wants to step up and say "we will
> have Fedora bug days every Friday (or whatever) from this time to this
> time, and I will be in #fedora-qa doing it myself, and teaching everyone
> else who wants to learn."
>
> I would do it, but, um, I'm washing my hair on Fridays.

I think this is the heart of the problem (not the washing hair, the
thankless work bit...) The only person I can recall who was ever a
Rock Star Bug Triager was Kjartan Maraas for GNOME, and I think he did
it out of dedication rather than sheer enjoyment, because he had the
talent to work on a lot of other stuff as well.

So there's a situation where some valuable work needs to be done, but
it's a big task, and nobody really enjoys doing it. Here are some
ideas:
. Make sure that it's only a lack of motivation that is keeping people
from contributing, and not a perceived lack of opportunity, resources,
or knowledge.
. Fix incentives. Maybe it means point system for rewarding people,
maybe it means free FUDcon trips, maybe it means improved recognition,
maybe it means hiring someone.
. Figure out what part of triaging /is/ enjoyable, and articulate it
well in a call for contributors.
. Divide & conquer. Maybe you can't get five people working steadily
on bug triaging, but you might be able to get fifty Fedora
contributors triaging one bug per person per week. If you could write
a piece of infrastructure that decided which bugs needed triaging,
it'd be easy enough to have that infrastructure send an e-mail out
once a week to those fifty people ("Greg, Please triage bug #45678")
and track who was actually doing their part. You may want to wash your
hair on Fridays, but don't tell me you wouldn't be willing to triage
one bug a week...?

Hope this helps,
-- Elliot

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Old 01-02-2008, 07:39 PM
Greg DeKoenigsberg
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, Elliot Lee wrote:

. Divide & conquer. Maybe you can't get five people working steadily on
bug triaging, but you might be able to get fifty Fedora contributors
triaging one bug per person per week. If you could write a piece of
infrastructure that decided which bugs needed triaging, it'd be easy
enough to have that infrastructure send an e-mail out once a week to
those fifty people ("Greg, Please triage bug #45678") and track who was
actually doing their part. You may want to wash your hair on Fridays,
but don't tell me you wouldn't be willing to triage one bug a week...?


You have no idea how important my hair is to me, dude.

--g

--
Greg DeKoenigsberg
Community Development Manager
Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
"To whomsoever much hath been given...
...from him much shall be asked"

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Old 01-02-2008, 08:07 PM
Jeremy Katz
 
Default dormant bugs and our perception

On Wed, 2008-01-02 at 12:25 -0800, Elliot Lee wrote:
> . Divide & conquer. Maybe you can't get five people working steadily
> on bug triaging, but you might be able to get fifty Fedora
> contributors triaging one bug per person per week. If you could write
> a piece of infrastructure that decided which bugs needed triaging,
> it'd be easy enough to have that infrastructure send an e-mail out
> once a week to those fifty people ("Greg, Please triage bug #45678")
> and track who was actually doing their part. You may want to wash your
> hair on Fridays, but don't tell me you wouldn't be willing to triage
> one bug a week...?

One problem with this is that there tend to be a fair number of
duplicate bugs filed. So fifty people triaging one bug a piece means
that they don't catch those duplicates and treat them as such. Instead,
they seem them as fifty separate bug reports.

One big and important part of triaging is looking at the patterns which
appear when you look at larger numbers of bugs. Both from the point of
view of effectively handling issues as well as from the perspective of
being able to provide information to developers as to what areas need
work

Jeremy

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