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Old 01-02-2009, 06:35 AM
Doug Berry
 
Default Picture Book....

Concerning the Fedora Picture Book....

I have heard from several dozen printers and
publishers over the last several weeks. There
are several things I would like to comment on:

1. Using a printer or print-run publisher
would be unfeasible because we would have to
store and ship books ourselves, to say nothing
of mailing costs.

2. Using a POD Publisher, such a Lulu or
iUniverse is probably the most readily available
option, but it would be the most expensive. For
instance, for a 130 page full color book, Lulu
would charge $30.50 per book. Anything we make
would be added on to that base cost. Most of the
other top POD Publishers charge a set fee, such
as BookSurge a $499.00 color book package.

3. Using the same POD publishers, if we went with
a color cover but black and white interior, the
price would drop substantially: Lulu - $8.75 per
book after their setup fee.

4. The most economical option would be to go to
the POD publishing source itself, which is Lightning
Source. They are the printer/distributor for
most of the POD Publishers, including Lulu. The
drawback here is that we would have to commit to
publishing more than one book. If we use Lightning
Source the base cost for the full color book would
be $6.80 per book. We could sell it for $14.00, not
an unreasonable price and make over $7.00 a book. Our
costs would be $144.00 up front for their set-up costs.
As you can see, we would only have to sell a couple
dozen books to recoup that cost.

5. Perhaps, if we used Lightning Source we could do
a Picture Book for each Fedora Release. "The people
of Fedora 11," then use the same event photos, but
add pictures and bios of core developers, Red Hat
people, other Project members, etc.

I have created a breakdown of the whole process, with
cost comparisons. Plus some ideas I had about adding
new writers and perhaps artists if we go with some
sort of publishing project. I will add links to these
documents on the Picture Book wiki, asap.

Here are the links if anyone is interested:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9668043/publishing
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9669285/wiki

What does anybody think?

-- w Douglas Berry --
slasherzee@fedoraproject.org




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Old 01-02-2009, 03:56 PM
Ian Weller
 
Default Picture Book....

On Thu, Jan 01, 2009 at 11:35:17PM -0800, Doug Berry wrote:
> 4. The most economical option would be to go to
> the POD publishing source itself, which is Lightning
> Source. They are the printer/distributor for
> most of the POD Publishers, including Lulu. The
> drawback here is that we would have to commit to
> publishing more than one book. If we use Lightning
> Source the base cost for the full color book would
> be $6.80 per book. We could sell it for $14.00, not
> an unreasonable price and make over $7.00 a book. Our
> costs would be $144.00 up front for their set-up costs.
> As you can see, we would only have to sell a couple
> dozen books to recoup that cost.
>
> 5. Perhaps, if we used Lightning Source we could do
> a Picture Book for each Fedora Release. "The people
> of Fedora 11," then use the same event photos, but
> add pictures and bios of core developers, Red Hat
> people, other Project members, etc.
>
Hmm. We were thinking about doing four books right from the start,
aligned with the four foundations -- "freedom, friends, features,
first", since we're going to try and get pictures of *everybody* at
FUDConF11 and fit most of them in somehow, plus pictures of people who
couldn't make it, provided by themselves or whatever.

In unrelated ventures:
1. I talked to spot about the release forms, he'll speak with RH
Legal(tm)(R)(sm) about it.
2. Please don't use Scribd, it took me five minutes to register an
account through OpenID just to download the file in a form that
doesn't eat my browser alive You can just attach PDFs to your
emails, I don't think the list scrubs them.

I don't know about anyone else, but it seems like Lightning Source is
the way to go... I would like to see what Paul thinks about all of this,
so I'll bug him the next moment I see him on IRC.

--
Ian Weller <ianweller@gmail.com> http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint: E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226 B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
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Old 01-02-2009, 04:31 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default Picture Book....

On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 10:56:07AM -0600, Ian Weller wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 01, 2009 at 11:35:17PM -0800, Doug Berry wrote:
> > 4. The most economical option would be to go to
> > the POD publishing source itself, which is Lightning
> > Source. They are the printer/distributor for
> > most of the POD Publishers, including Lulu. The
> > drawback here is that we would have to commit to
> > publishing more than one book. If we use Lightning
> > Source the base cost for the full color book would
> > be $6.80 per book. We could sell it for $14.00, not
> > an unreasonable price and make over $7.00 a book. Our
> > costs would be $144.00 up front for their set-up costs.
> > As you can see, we would only have to sell a couple
> > dozen books to recoup that cost.
> >
> > 5. Perhaps, if we used Lightning Source we could do
> > a Picture Book for each Fedora Release. "The people
> > of Fedora 11," then use the same event photos, but
> > add pictures and bios of core developers, Red Hat
> > people, other Project members, etc.
> >
> Hmm. We were thinking about doing four books right from the start,
> aligned with the four foundations -- "freedom, friends, features,
> first", since we're going to try and get pictures of *everybody* at
> FUDConF11 and fit most of them in somehow, plus pictures of people who
> couldn't make it, provided by themselves or whatever.
>
> In unrelated ventures:
> 1. I talked to spot about the release forms, he'll speak with RH
> Legal(tm)(R)(sm) about it.
> 2. Please don't use Scribd, it took me five minutes to register an
> account through OpenID just to download the file in a form that
> doesn't eat my browser alive You can just attach PDFs to your
> emails, I don't think the list scrubs them.

Better than attaching PDFs to an email to thousands of people --
simply post it to your fedorapeople.org space.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedorapeople.org

We should try wherever possible to distribute information using
completely free and open source outlets. Your fedorapeople.org
account is a great way to have large files available for fellow
contributors to download without clogging those email arteries!
(After all the holiday meals I appear to have artery clogging on the
brain.) :-)

> I don't know about anyone else, but it seems like Lightning Source is
> the way to go... I would like to see what Paul thinks about all of this,
> so I'll bug him the next moment I see him on IRC.

I've been mostly avoiding IRC over the holiday to spend more time with
my family during my break, but I'll be around more this weekend and
definitely Monday. :-)

It would behoove us to have someone serve as the lead for
this project, have that person get pre-orders up front through
whatever means work best (PayPal, for instance), and then use that
money to pay for the up-front costs. I think that will be a good
indicator of the demand for the book(s).

It would be nice for people to be able to contribute other photos (and
releases) for cases where they aren't at an event to be photographed.

There is one large and lingering question, though, which is profit.
We have no place for that profit to reside here in the USA, and
probably won't for some time. Perhaps this project should be
coordinated with Fedora EMEA so any profits can be devoted directly to
furthering Fedora activities there. Or the proceeds could be donated
to a worthy global nonprofit like the FSF. We'd need to make sure
that no matter what we do with any money, the full accounting process
is as transparent as possible.

--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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Old 01-02-2009, 06:07 PM
Doug Berry
 
Default Picture Book....

--- On Fri, 1/2/09, Paul W. Frields <stickster@gmail.com> wrote:

> It would behoove us to have someone serve as the lead for
> this project, have that person get pre-orders up front
> through
> whatever means work best (PayPal, for instance), and then
> use that
> money to pay for the up-front costs. I think that will be
> a good
> indicator of the demand for the book(s).
>
> It would be nice for people to be able to contribute other
> photos (and
> releases) for cases where they aren't at an event to be
> photographed.
>
> There is one large and lingering question, though, which is
> profit.
> We have no place for that profit to reside here in the USA,
> and
> probably won't for some time. Perhaps this project
> should be
> coordinated with Fedora EMEA so any profits can be devoted
> directly to
> furthering Fedora activities there. Or the proceeds could
> be donated
> to a worthy global nonprofit like the FSF. We'd need
> to make sure
> that no matter what we do with any money, the full
> accounting process
> is as transparent as possible.

As far as profits from book sales goes, as I understand it
Lightning Source does everything. They handle all sales, collect
all the money, and send us a royalty check every three months.
Except for that initial payment to them for that first book, for
other books, they would just deduct their fees from what they owe
us.

They may be amenable to changing their royalty payment schedule
to once every six months: or a year. That would mean any pool of
money would be on their books, and not ours. We could just send
them books and they deduct the fees from our account.

As far as a lead for this project, I would gladly volunteer my
services, since I have some expertise in these matters. Or perhaps
we could make an overseer of someone like Mo or Clint, since
they are both Fedora and Red Hat, and could walk through both
worlds so to speak.

If nobody has any objections, I will contact Lightning Source
and amass the papers and contracts that will be necessary to
be signed. It's all pretty straight forward, they just want to
know who they are dealing with.

<< Douglas Berry >>
slasherzee@fedoraproject.org






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Old 01-02-2009, 09:22 PM
Ian Weller
 
Default Picture Book....

On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 12:31:38PM -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> Better than attaching PDFs to an email to thousands of people --
> simply post it to your fedorapeople.org space.
>
But of course... I forgot!

> It would behoove us to have someone serve as the lead for
> this project, have that person get pre-orders up front through
> whatever means work best (PayPal, for instance), and then use that
> money to pay for the up-front costs. I think that will be a good
> indicator of the demand for the book(s).
>
This seems like the correct thing to do.

> It would be nice for people to be able to contribute other photos (and
> releases) for cases where they aren't at an event to be photographed.
>
Of course.

The big question, however, is where do we store the photos? Flickr's
group setup seems to be the easiest way for both us and those submitting
photos. Alternatives include fedorapeople.org, or setting up gallery
software on Fedora's/somebody's infrastructure that could contain high
quality photos.

> There is one large and lingering question, though, which is profit.
> We have no place for that profit to reside here in the USA, and
> probably won't for some time. Perhaps this project should be
> coordinated with Fedora EMEA so any profits can be devoted directly to
> furthering Fedora activities there. Or the proceeds could be donated
> to a worthy global nonprofit like the FSF. We'd need to make sure
> that no matter what we do with any money, the full accounting process
> is as transparent as possible.
>
(Or OLPC? :P)

Can the profit be added to budgets for Ambassadors events or whatnot? Or
does that still hit the "not in the USA" thing? (And what exactly is
causing that? I'm quite curious.)

--
Ian Weller <ianweller@gmail.com> http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint: E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226 B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
~ Douglas Adams
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Old 01-02-2009, 09:32 PM
Ian Weller
 
Default Picture Book....

On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 11:07:14AM -0800, Doug Berry wrote:
> As far as profits from book sales goes, as I understand it
> Lightning Source does everything. They handle all sales, collect
> all the money, and send us a royalty check every three months.
> Except for that initial payment to them for that first book, for
> other books, they would just deduct their fees from what they owe
> us.
>
I'm somewhat confused. If it's an upfront cost, how is it deducted from
our royalty checks?

Can we get a summary of the price per book again? And will this be
black/white or full color pages? (I was peering around the Lightning
Source website and apparently they provide both services.)

> As far as a lead for this project, I would gladly volunteer my
> services, since I have some expertise in these matters. Or perhaps
> we could make an overseer of someone like Mo or Clint, since
> they are both Fedora and Red Hat, and could walk through both
> worlds so to speak.
>
Clint doesn't work at Red Hat, IIRC.

> If nobody has any objections, I will contact Lightning Source
> and amass the papers and contracts that will be necessary to
> be signed. It's all pretty straight forward, they just want to
> know who they are dealing with.
>
Let's hold off until after FUDConF11 for deciding on a vendor, I think
people need some more time to digest this information. Right now, I
think the process for getting pictures is more important, with FUDCon
starting seven days from now.

(Speaking of which, spot has reported to me that RH Legal will be back
in the office next week, so we should have some idea on what to do with
release forms.)

--
Ian Weller <ianweller@gmail.com> http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint: E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226 B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
~ Douglas Adams
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Old 01-03-2009, 06:51 AM
Max Spevack
 
Default Picture Book....

On Fri, 2 Jan 2009, Paul W. Frields wrote:

I've been mostly avoiding IRC over the holiday to spend more time with
my family during my break, but I'll be around more this weekend and
definitely Monday. :-)


Wait.... so does that mean that I'm the only person who sets a place for
my laptop at the Christmas dinner table? I put a background image of
Shadowman on it, and make it a nice plate with some ham, gravy, etc.


--Max

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Old 01-03-2009, 06:53 AM
Max Spevack
 
Default Picture Book....

On Fri, 2 Jan 2009, Paul W. Frields wrote:

There is one large and lingering question, though, which is profit. We
have no place for that profit to reside here in the USA, and probably
won't for some time. Perhaps this project should be coordinated with
Fedora EMEA so any profits can be devoted directly to furthering
Fedora activities there. Or the proceeds could be donated to a worthy
global nonprofit like the FSF. We'd need to make sure that no matter
what we do with any money, the full accounting process is as
transparent as possible.


I (along with the CommArch budget) am happy to help with accounting to
whatever extent I am needed.


--Max

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Old 01-03-2009, 06:55 AM
Max Spevack
 
Default Picture Book....

On Fri, 2 Jan 2009, Ian Weller wrote:


Can the profit be added to budgets for Ambassadors events or whatnot?


I don't see any reason why not. We just want to make sure we know who
is holding the money, and how much there ends up being. I think it's a
pretty simple & straightforward problem to solve.


--Max

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Old 01-03-2009, 02:45 PM
Doug Berry
 
Default Picture Book....

--- On Fri, 1/2/09, Max Spevack <mspevack@redhat.com> wrote:

> I don't see any reason why not. We just want to make
> sure we know who is holding the money, and how much there
> ends up being. I think it's a pretty simple &
> straightforward problem to solve.

If I may jump in on this for a moment. The only way we
would ever sell or handle any books ourselves, would be
if we chose to buy them from Lightning Source and sell
them.

Otherwise all sales would be handled by Lightning Source
and they would provide us with strict accounting for each
sale. They are a division of Ingram Book Services, which
handles half the books in the world and is a multi-billion
dollar enterprise.

Once the book(s) are in the Ingram database, we can just
direct any buyers to Amazon, Wal-mart, any book store with
a computer, and a zillion other on-line vendors.

Lightning Source would then send us a royalty check, I
think it's every three months. We can just have them send
it to Max and he can disburse any funds.

Also, I have a bunch of documents that Lightning Source
sent me. They are pretty thorough in breaking down the
costs and establishing what we can expect from them. I
tried to send them to some people over the mailing lists
email, but the file size was to big and it crashed. I also
sent them to Ian, so if anyone wants a copy, they would
need to provide him or I with a outside email address.







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