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Old 12-21-2007, 09:28 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Fedora more successful, developer-wise, than Ubuntu

On Dec 20, 2007 10:19 AM, Mukul Dharwadkar <mukul.dharwadkar@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well I can certainly respect that, but what good is innovation if nobody (or
> at least not enough) is going to use it.

How do you know that not enough be are going to use it? 2 years from
now, 5 years from now 10 years from now... can you see that far ahead?
Looking at every 6 month release as the end result, is an absolutely
fantastic way to NOT see how innovations are being adopted. You have
to look much further out than that... at least 2 years. How far would
Ubuntu have come if Debian community wasn't already there for years
and years doing the hard work of putting a distribution together?
Every release of Fedora is a step a long a path. Not an end product.
We choose to put disruptive technology into the distribution so that
long term everyone benefits because we help mature that technology in
an open dialog between users and developers.

Remind me again, with which distribution does the software for OLPC
share the closest heritage? 5 years out from now will there be
enough OLPC users in the world to satisfy what you personally think
are "enough" users for innovative technology that is being created now
in conjunction with Fedora?

Innovation is best measured by taking into account of all the ways you
didn't expect it to be used when you were creating it. In that sense,
mozilla is a great example of an innovation generator. By all rights,
they lost the browser war by the time Netscape opened its codebase and
created the Mozilla foundation. They lost it, hands down. Everyone
involved with mozilla should have just packed it up and gone home, IE
ate their lunch in marketshare. But they didn't, and because they
focused heavily on innovating open source technology we've got all
these very interesting web-centric applications that are making use of
xul technology that aren't a traditional browser... not to mention a
pretty nice traditional browser or two as well.

The real magic of innovation is not how appealing it is when you are
creating it, but how it inspires more people to do new supremely
interesting things in the future. An analogy, this year the color
pink may be appealing for rain jackets, but the innovation of Goretex
was revolutionary when it was created for the space program. I'd
rather have Fedora focus on developing innovations has impactful as
Goretex and not worry so much about what this year's hot color will
be.

> And I did think that providing a
> viable alternative to Windows was one of the objective of Linux. I didn't
> compare Fedora with Windows because it is accepted that Microsoft has a
> monopoly on the desktop OS market. It is within the Linux community where
> the question of popularity exists.

There are NO valid comprehensive comparable metrics of linux adoption
across openly developed distributions...full stop. You can wave your
hands all you want. But the hard reality is Fedora is the ONLY
distribution that is putting any effort into producing a methodology
in counting adoption trends.

> I order to abide by our principles I feel we must make our software more
> appealing and usable than the competition, for which the immediate goal is
> Ubuntu, then MAC and then ultimately challenge the supremacy of Windows.

if you feel Ubuntu is competition, then you absolutely the wrong
mindset in place to be an effective contributor for Fedora. The Fedora
mission is about being a conduit for upstream development. We
integrate the work of multiple upstreams has faithfully as we can, and
drive the necessary changes back into upstream projects for everyone
to make use of. If you are looking for to make Fedora more appealing
by adding a lot of downstream patches that other distributions don't
get access to via upstream, that is in direct conflict with the
mission. We try very hard limit how we differentiate from upstream to
thematic elements that users can easily change after install. If
there is general UI polish, then we want that to go into the upstream
projects so that everyone making use of those project components to
build a distribution benefit.

>
> I am not trying to start a flame war. After all we are all on the same side.
> I just wanted to contribute my thoughts.

You aren't starting a flame war. This is discussion is as old as the
fedora project.

-jef

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Old 12-22-2007, 05:23 AM
"Mukul Dharwadkar"
 
Default Fedora more successful, developer-wise, than Ubuntu

Well, you are right. I don't know 2 years from now how many people will be using it. But I know that whoever will be using F8 or even F9 will be at least 3 versions out of date or will have to reinstall thrice.



How many of the "users" would be looking forward to do that on a regular basis unless we come with a in-place upgrade option like what Ubuntu provides. And while I am on that subject a competition need not always mean that you have destroy the opponent. It can always be a healthy competition where both Fedora and Ubuntu can become better and stronger and more widely adopted. If we don't consider Ubuntu as competition then why do we keep a track and follow what is happening in Ubuntu world. I remember not so long ago on the same mailing list.


If we don't want to measure the adoption and success rates, then we might as well drop all pretense of developing an operating system for the consumption of user community and limit it for research and educational purposes because it all points to the same thing. Innovation has it's own place, but as I have already said, innovation is no good if nobody is going to use it. Mozilla (specifically Firefox) is a case of innovation driven by and towards an end user need keeping ease of use & adoption in mind. Innovation is not magic. It is driven by specific user demand and necessity. As we say, "Necessity is the mother of Invention".


We cannot disregard this point and absolve of our responsibility of providing a good and free (or extremely affordable) alternative to the user by saying that it is as old as mother earth and nothing can be done about it. We are empowered people who have the vision and boldness to challenge the established and create a change.


I am just voicing my opinions of what expectations the user community will be having from us.
*
--

Mukul Dharwadkar
http://www.dharwadkar.com
http://www.dharwadkar.org

Sister site:

http://www.saraswatibhuvan.org



*


On Dec 21, 2007 4:28 PM, Jeff Spaleta <
jspaleta@gmail.com> wrote:
On Dec 20, 2007 10:19 AM, Mukul Dharwadkar <
mukul.dharwadkar@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well I can certainly respect that, but what good is innovation if nobody (or
> at least not enough) is going to use it.



How do you know that not enough be are going to use it? 2 years from
now, 5 years from now 10 years from now... can you see that far ahead?
*Looking at every 6 month release as the end result, is an absolutely

fantastic way to NOT see how innovations are being adopted. You have
to look much further out than that... at least 2 years. *How far would
Ubuntu have come if Debian community wasn't already there for years

and years doing the hard work of putting a distribution together?
Every release of Fedora is a step a long a path. Not an end product.
We choose to put disruptive technology into the distribution so that
long term everyone benefits because we help mature that technology in

an open dialog between users and developers.

Remind me again, with which distribution does the software for OLPC
share the closest heritage? *5 years *out from now will there be
enough OLPC users in the world to satisfy what you personally think

are "enough" users for innovative technology that is being created now
in conjunction with Fedora?

Innovation is best measured by taking into account of all the ways you
didn't expect it to be used when you were creating it. In that sense,

mozilla is a great example of an innovation generator. *By all rights,
they lost the browser war by the time Netscape opened its codebase and
created the Mozilla foundation. *They lost it, hands down. Everyone


involved with mozilla should have just packed it up and gone home, IE
ate their lunch in marketshare. *But they didn't, and because they
focused heavily on innovating open source technology we've got all


these very interesting web-centric applications that are making use of
xul technology that aren't a traditional browser... not to mention a
pretty nice traditional browser or two as well.

The real magic of innovation is not how appealing it is when you are

creating it, but how it inspires more people to do new supremely
interesting things in the future. *An analogy, this year the color
pink may be appealing for rain jackets, but the innovation of Goretex
was revolutionary when it was created for the space program. I'd

rather have Fedora focus on developing innovations has impactful as
Goretex and not worry so much about what this year's hot color will
be.

> And I did think that providing a

> viable alternative to Windows was one of the objective of Linux. I didn't
> compare Fedora with Windows because it is accepted that Microsoft has a
> monopoly on the desktop OS market. It is within the Linux community where

> the question of popularity exists.

There are NO valid comprehensive comparable metrics of linux adoption
across openly developed distributions...full stop. You can wave your
hands all you want. But the hard reality is Fedora is the ONLY

distribution that is putting any effort into producing a methodology
in counting adoption trends.

> I order to abide by our principles I feel we must make our software more
> appealing and usable than the competition, for which the immediate goal is

> Ubuntu, then MAC and then ultimately challenge the supremacy of Windows.

if you feel Ubuntu is competition, then you absolutely the wrong
mindset in place to be an effective contributor for Fedora. The Fedora

*mission is about being a conduit for upstream development. We
integrate the work of multiple upstreams has faithfully as we can, and
drive the necessary changes back into upstream projects for everyone
to make use of. If you are looking for to make Fedora more appealing

by adding a lot of downstream patches that other distributions don't
get access to via upstream, that is in direct conflict with the
mission. *We try very hard limit how we differentiate from upstream to


thematic elements that users can easily change after install. *If
there is general UI polish, then we want that to go into the upstream
projects so that everyone making use of those project components to
build a distribution benefit.


>
> I am not trying to start a flame war. After all we are all on the same side.
> I just wanted to contribute my thoughts.

You aren't starting a flame war. This is discussion is as old as the

fedora project.

-jef

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Smile!!! It improves your face value...

Visit me at
http://www.dharwadkar.com
http://www.dharwadkar.org

Sister Site:

http://www.saraswatibhuvan.org
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:46 AM
William Cattey
 
Default Fedora more successful, developer-wise, than Ubuntu

Here is a simple metric for you:

Each September MIT offers a brief introduction to computing at MIT to
all comers, but particularly focused on the incoming freshmen.
Institutionally MIT is a Red Hat Enterprise Linux shop.
Unfortunately, most incoming freshmen run what is free, not what is
supported.


For many years the informal poll, "by show of hands, what distro are
you running" the majority was Fedora. Starting last year, Fedora
took a distant second to Ubuntu. In the "Linux Stand and be Counted
Survey" departments, labs, centers and individuals at MIT run a
significant majority of Debian/Ubuntu compared to any other distro.


Maybe this is just because, like Mandrake before it, there was some
significant that made the distro very popular for a time, but then
then it was abandoned and the majority returned to the steadfast
source of interesting new and useful functionality, Fedora (and Red
Hat Linux before it.)


My experience, however is:

Red Hat Enterprise Linux is for large institutions where ANY change
is bad, and
where nobody cares about laptops. Functionality is always a couple
years behind

what people find on Windows, MacOS or Fedora.

Fedora is for people interested in playing with and contributing to
the bleeding edge
of Linux. Stuff is always changing, and it's often different from
what everyone
else is using, and it sometimes need a little tweaking to get stuff
working. Sometimes

this is a welcome challenge. Sometimes it's too much of a pain.

Ubuntu is for people who want to use Linux, preferably on their
laptops, and
preferably not for development. But also, Ubuntu is COOL. It is
easy to get it
going and working with the same stuff that the guy next door runs on
the Mac

or under Windows. Contributing in the future is a real possibility.

I am concerned that Fedora and Red Hat are losing mindshare in a way
that a few years down the line will "kill the seed corn." There's no
nice middle ground between Red Hat Enterprise with well established
functionality, and Fedora with bleeding edge functionality. Well
there is

but it's called Ubuntu.

For the people already committed to the development community, Fedora
is perfect just as it is.
But for people not sure whether they want to use Linux, or join the
developer community, Ubuntu works, but Fedora has issues.


Perhaps those who feel as Mukul Dharwadkar and myself will find a way
to provide a particular spin on Fedora that will be an intermediate
stage between Fedora as it is now, and Enterprise such that the
developer community will build from the Fedora code base, not the
less interesting, but more usable Debian/Ubuntu code base.


-Bill

----

William Cattey
Linux Platform Coordinator
MIT Information Services & Technology

N42-040M, 617-253-0140, wdc@mit.edu
http://web.mit.edu/wdc/www/


On Dec 21, 2007, at 5:28 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote:


if you feel Ubuntu is competition, then you absolutely the wrong
mindset in place to be an effective contributor for Fedora. The Fedora
mission is about being a conduit for upstream development.


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Old 12-24-2007, 07:49 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Fedora more successful, developer-wise, than Ubuntu

On Dec 23, 2007 7:46 PM, William Cattey <wdc@mit.edu> wrote:
> I am concerned that Fedora and Red Hat are losing mindshare in a way
> that a few years down the line will "kill the seed corn." There's no
> nice middle ground between Red Hat Enterprise with well established
> functionality, and Fedora with bleeding edge functionality. Well
> there is
> but it's called Ubuntu.

Point to specific functionality... open functionality that Fedora
doesn't have that we should.
If you are talking about nvidia or ati proprietary drivers out of the
box.. then that's a non-starter. What piece of open technology is
Fedora not providing that let's people
"working with the same stuff that the guy next door runs on the Mac or
under Window"

It's real easy to speak in generalities and yet not actually say
anything significant.

>
> For the people already committed to the development community, Fedora
> is perfect just as it is.
> But for people not sure whether they want to use Linux, or join the
> developer community, Ubuntu works, but Fedora has issues.

Every distribution has issues. What in the Fedora Desktop LiveCD doesn't work?

>
> Perhaps those who feel as Mukul Dharwadkar and myself will find a way
> to provide a particular spin on Fedora that will be an intermediate
> stage between Fedora as it is now, and Enterprise such that the
> developer community will build from the Fedora code base, not the
> less interesting, but more usable Debian/Ubuntu code base.

Again isn't the Fedora Desktop Livecd exactly what you want?

-jef

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Old 12-24-2007, 09:02 PM
"Jon Stanley"
 
Default Fedora more successful, developer-wise, than Ubuntu

On Dec 24, 2007 2:49 PM, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com> wrote:

> Point to specific functionality... open functionality that Fedora
> doesn't have that we should.

I think that what is being referred to here is the Ubuntu 'LTS'
releases, that get long term support updates. I 'm kind of on the
fence on whether or not we should do this - it means extra developer
cycles that may or may not exist, and the fact that we *do* have RHEL
and it's derivatives, a la CentOS. Someone looking for a free as in
{speech,beer} distribution with long term support I tend to point
towards CentOS, but maybe there is middle ground between that and the
current Fedora that we don't have.

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Old 12-24-2007, 09:19 PM
Jeroen van Meeuwen
 
Default Fedora more successful, developer-wise, than Ubuntu

Jon Stanley wrote:

On Dec 24, 2007 2:49 PM, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com> wrote:


Point to specific functionality... open functionality that Fedora
doesn't have that we should.


I think that what is being referred to here is the Ubuntu 'LTS'
releases, that get long term support updates. I 'm kind of on the
fence on whether or not we should do this - it means extra developer
cycles that may or may not exist, and the fact that we *do* have RHEL
and it's derivatives, a la CentOS. Someone looking for a free as in
{speech,beer} distribution with long term support I tend to point
towards CentOS, but maybe there is middle ground between that and the
current Fedora that we don't have.



I don't think Ubuntu LTS gives you the latest and greatest unless you
upgrade, does it?


Same with CentOS; although it might be supported longer then you are
going to use it, whenever you feel you want newer software you upgrade
to the next release. Meanwhile, it's stable.


The Fedora Project moves in with EPEL, Extra Packages for Enterprise
Linux, perfectly suitable for a CentOS machine and with the same release
and 'support' cycle.


Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

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Old 12-24-2007, 09:33 PM
Matthew Miller
 
Default Fedora more successful, developer-wise, than Ubuntu

On Mon, Dec 24, 2007 at 04:02:39PM -0600, Jon Stanley wrote:
> and it's derivatives, a la CentOS. Someone looking for a free as in
> {speech,beer} distribution with long term support I tend to point
> towards CentOS, but maybe there is middle ground between that and the
> current Fedora that we don't have.

There was, in Fedora Legacy. But there turned out to be too little interest.

--
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Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>

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Old 12-24-2007, 09:38 PM
"Jon Stanley"
 
Default Fedora more successful, developer-wise, than Ubuntu

On Dec 24, 2007 4:19 PM, Jeroen van Meeuwen <kanarip@kanarip.com> wrote:

> I don't think Ubuntu LTS gives you the latest and greatest unless you
> upgrade, does it?

I think that's the whole point.

> Same with CentOS; although it might be supported longer then you are
> going to use it, whenever you feel you want newer software you upgrade
> to the next release. Meanwhile, it's stable.

Correct - however security updates are backported to the "old"
versions of the software.

> The Fedora Project moves in with EPEL, Extra Packages for Enterprise
> Linux, perfectly suitable for a CentOS machine and with the same release
> and 'support' cycle.

Not entirely sure what you mean here. I think what was being called
for was a release whereby it's "supported" (with security updates,
etc) beyond the current 1 year, however perhaps not as much as the 7
years that RHEL is supported.

However, as Matthew said in the e-mail that came in as I was writing
this, there was little interest in Fedora Legacy when it existed.
What makes us think that there's more of a demand now? It's either
the short, bleeding edge release cycle of Fedora as we know it, or the
long release cycle of RHEL. Both serve different purposes.

-Jon

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Old 12-24-2007, 10:35 PM
Jeroen van Meeuwen
 
Default Fedora more successful, developer-wise, than Ubuntu

Jon Stanley wrote:

The Fedora Project moves in with EPEL, Extra Packages for Enterprise
Linux, perfectly suitable for a CentOS machine and with the same release
and 'support' cycle.


Not entirely sure what you mean here. I think what was being called
for was a release whereby it's "supported" (with security updates,
etc) beyond the current 1 year, however perhaps not as much as the 7
years that RHEL is supported.



EPEL is a Fedora Project effort for Enterprise Linux providing extra
packages and updates to those packages for the same amount of time the
Enterprise Linux distribution it ships for is supported. I don't really
know what their policy is on actively back-porting fixes for security
issues, but as far as I know you can at least log bugs again an EPEL
package until the end of the release's lifecycle.



However, as Matthew said in the e-mail that came in as I was writing
this, there was little interest in Fedora Legacy when it existed.
What makes us think that there's more of a demand now? It's either
the short, bleeding edge release cycle of Fedora as we know it, or the
long release cycle of RHEL. Both serve different purposes.



Yes, and the shorter release cycle for Fedora -at least in my opinion-
helps us to do what we do best, moving forward, not "wasting" resources
to what Enterprise Linux does best, being stable.


Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

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Old 12-24-2007, 10:51 PM
William Cattey
 
Default Fedora more successful, developer-wise, than Ubuntu

It turns out that 1000 seats at MIT are switching to Ubuntu from
Enterprise.
They will not be using LTS, because they expect to need more recent
hardware drivers.


They are switching to Ubuntu instead of Fedora even though they
expect there will be an annual OS update of Ubuntu required, the apt
package management system makes a lot of the work to switch from our
present tightly integrated OS + alternate versions of packages +
additional packages to alternate versions and additional packages
layered on a pre-installed system.


It is product focus, however that makes Ubuntu attractive to me and
many at MIT. With Fedora and Enterprise, the two choices are three
year old functionality, or bleeding edge functionality. Example: in
November Fedora 8 came out with important laptop power management
functionality, but it also shipped with a broken rewrite of
NetworkManager, and an alpha version of BIND. Fedora 6 shifted to
not getting any attention, and the clock to get off Fedora 7 started
EVEN BEFORE FEDORA 8 FUNCTIONALITY WAS STABLE!


With Ubuntu, a single common code base is taken care of by different
groups serving different clientele. Canonical Inc. will take money
from corporate customers who need help managing systems or getting
new functionality. Volunteers explore new functionality and move
forward on the process of producing open source solutions. At
particular points a particular version is flagged for longer term
support, but the primary focus is not on exploring new functionality,
or on back porting popular functionality to an ancient codebase
tailored to customers afraid of change. It is simply: Produce a
usable experience with a balance of stable code and new
functionality. What Fedora-based spin has this focus?


-Bill

----

William Cattey
Linux Platform Coordinator
MIT Information Services & Technology

N42-040M, 617-253-0140, wdc@mit.edu
http://web.mit.edu/wdc/www/


On Dec 24, 2007, at 5:38 PM, Jon Stanley wrote:

On Dec 24, 2007 4:19 PM, Jeroen van Meeuwen <kanarip@kanarip.com>
wrote:



I don't think Ubuntu LTS gives you the latest and greatest unless you
upgrade, does it?


I think that's the whole point.


Same with CentOS; although it might be supported longer then you are
going to use it, whenever you feel you want newer software you
upgrade

to the next release. Meanwhile, it's stable.


Correct - however security updates are backported to the "old"
versions of the software.


The Fedora Project moves in with EPEL, Extra Packages for Enterprise
Linux, perfectly suitable for a CentOS machine and with the same
release

and 'support' cycle.


Not entirely sure what you mean here. I think what was being called
for was a release whereby it's "supported" (with security updates,
etc) beyond the current 1 year, however perhaps not as much as the 7
years that RHEL is supported.

However, as Matthew said in the e-mail that came in as I was writing
this, there was little interest in Fedora Legacy when it existed.
What makes us think that there's more of a demand now? It's either
the short, bleeding edge release cycle of Fedora as we know it, or the
long release cycle of RHEL. Both serve different purposes.

-Jon

--
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