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Old 03-03-2009, 04:39 PM
Cole Robinson
 
Default RFC: virt-manager: Redesigned 'New VM' wizard

Bryan Kearney wrote:
> Cole Robinson wrote:
>> Bryan Kearney wrote:
>>> Cole Robinson wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Page 5: Summary and Advanced Options
>>>>
>>>> http://fedorapeople.org/~crobinso/virt-manager/newvm2/newvm-pg5-1.png
>>>> http://fedorapeople.org/~crobinso/virt-manager/newvm2/newvm-pg5-2.png
>>>> http://fedorapeople.org/~crobinso/virt-manager/newvm2/newvm-pg5-3.png
>>>>
>>>> The summary section is pretty straight forward, no surprises here.
>>>> The 'Advanced Options' section encompasses networking, hypervisor, and
>>>> architecture options. The hypervisor and arch defaults were explained
>>>> above.
>>>>
>>>> For networking, the default is:
>>>>
>>>> - A bridge device if any exist, else
>>>> - Virtual Network 'default' (comes out of the box with libvirt), else
>>>> - First available virtual network, else
>>>> - no networking!
>>> Networking being "hidden" seems a bit odd here. In a decent number of
>>> the cases I have used the tool in (not all) i wanted to select this. It
>>> it possible to show this information on the summary, and then have them
>>> click into advanced to set it?
>>>
>>
>> In the times you were changing the default network selection, what was
>> the reason? Choosing from more than one virtual net or bridge? Just
>> curious.
>
> I had a specific bridge I wanted it to use. Normally.. I want it to use
> default, but in 2 use cases I have specific bridges which I want them to
> use.
>
>>
>> The reasoning here is we want the UI to be as simple as possible for the
>> out of the box user, which at most has 1 virtual network (and 1 bridge
>> device if using xen networking). For these users, we don't want them to
>> concern themselves with the default, we want it to 'just work'
>
> I agree. Which is why I wonder can you show that in the review step..
> and then have them click to edit.
>

I'm iffy on it. For users that expect it to just work, I'd rather not
show anything, since they should have no reason to be concerned with it.
For users that have specific networking needs, they will likely be
changing the default anyways, so no need to explicitly show it outside
of 'Advanced Options'. Also, the info would be a duplicate of what's
listed below the 'Advanced Options' tab, which is needlessly redundant.

That said it's a pretty minor thing to add, I guess we will just see if
people trip up on it.

I suppose if anything goes 'wrong' in choosing a default ('default'
network isn't present or is inactive, no networks or bridge devs) we
could expand the 'Advanced Options' tab automatically which would
hopefully prompt the user to examine the choice.

Thanks,
Cole

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Old 03-03-2009, 04:45 PM
Cole Robinson
 
Default RFC: virt-manager: Redesigned 'New VM' wizard

Subhendu Ghosh wrote:
> Bryan Kearney wrote:
>> Cole Robinson wrote:
>>> Bryan Kearney wrote:
>>>> Cole Robinson wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Page 5: Summary and Advanced Options
>>>>>
>>>>> http://fedorapeople.org/~crobinso/virt-manager/newvm2/newvm-pg5-1.png
>>>>> http://fedorapeople.org/~crobinso/virt-manager/newvm2/newvm-pg5-2.png
>>>>> http://fedorapeople.org/~crobinso/virt-manager/newvm2/newvm-pg5-3.png
>>>>>
>>>>> The summary section is pretty straight forward, no surprises here.
>>>>> The 'Advanced Options' section encompasses networking, hypervisor, and
>>>>> architecture options. The hypervisor and arch defaults were explained
>>>>> above.
>>>>>
>>>>> For networking, the default is:
>>>>>
>>>>> - A bridge device if any exist, else
>>>>> - Virtual Network 'default' (comes out of the box with libvirt), else
>>>>> - First available virtual network, else
>>>>> - no networking!
>>>> Networking being "hidden" seems a bit odd here. In a decent number of
>>>> the cases I have used the tool in (not all) i wanted to select this. It
>>>> it possible to show this information on the summary, and then have them
>>>> click into advanced to set it?
>>>>
>>>
>>> In the times you were changing the default network selection, what was
>>> the reason? Choosing from more than one virtual net or bridge? Just
>>> curious.
>>
>> I had a specific bridge I wanted it to use. Normally.. I want it to
>> use default, but in 2 use cases I have specific bridges which I want
>> them to use.
>>
>>>
>>> The reasoning here is we want the UI to be as simple as possible for the
>>> out of the box user, which at most has 1 virtual network (and 1 bridge
>>> device if using xen networking). For these users, we don't want them to
>>> concern themselves with the default, we want it to 'just work'
>>
>> I agree. Which is why I wonder can you show that in the review step..
>> and then have them click to edit.
>>
>>>
>>> Anything beyond that case requires explicit user setup ahead of time,
>>> they should know full well when creating a new VM that they will have to
>>> select some non-default network setup. Forcing them to click the
>>> 'Advanced Options' expander doesn't seem like a loss, compared to the
>>> gain of allowing new users to not have to even think about networking
>>> (either by showing the network drop down, or having a summary field
>>> showing some choice they didn't explicitly make.)
>>>
>
> How dynamic is the network list under advanced?
>
> What happens if you don't find the network you are looking for and
> decide to go off an create it while leaving the wizard waiting on step
> 5? Do you have to restart the wizard?
>

The current code won't pick up the changes, you would have to restart
the wizard. We have the mechanism in the backend to pick up the changes
though, so it would be a minor thing to add. I'll look into it for the
next patch spin.

> Also the wizard should support multiple NICs and disks - perhaps from
> step 5 - be able to launch sub-wizards to add nic and add disk?
>

I think such a process would add non-trivial complication to the UI for
a rather niche case. For a user wanting a multi nic or disk configured
VM, I would point them at virt-install which easily scales in this
respect. Extra NICs could also be added post install, since I would
think only one would be required for the install process.

Thanks,
Cole

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Old 03-04-2009, 01:56 AM
Radek Hladik
 
Default RFC: virt-manager: Redesigned 'New VM' wizard

Cole Robinson napsal(a):

Subhendu Ghosh wrote:

Bryan Kearney wrote:

Cole Robinson wrote:

Bryan Kearney wrote:

Cole Robinson wrote:

Hi all,



Also the wizard should support multiple NICs and disks - perhaps from
step 5 - be able to launch sub-wizards to add nic and add disk?



I think such a process would add non-trivial complication to the UI for
a rather niche case. For a user wanting a multi nic or disk configured
VM, I would point them at virt-install which easily scales in this
respect. Extra NICs could also be added post install, since I would
think only one would be required for the install process.

My opinion is that this can be solved by some sort of "do not start the
VM and open VM details for fine tuning" option. I am not sure where I've
seen this (VMWare ESX maybe?) but the last page of the wizard contained
checkboxes like "start machine now" and "edit VM details after closing
the wizard". With reasonable default values you can satisfy both
advanced user and a "just to be done" user in a straight-forward way.

Radek

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Old 03-04-2009, 03:09 AM
Subhendu Ghosh
 
Default RFC: virt-manager: Redesigned 'New VM' wizard

Radek Hladik wrote:

Cole Robinson napsal(a):

Subhendu Ghosh wrote:

Bryan Kearney wrote:

Cole Robinson wrote:

Bryan Kearney wrote:

Cole Robinson wrote:

Hi all,



Also the wizard should support multiple NICs and disks - perhaps from
step 5 - be able to launch sub-wizards to add nic and add disk?



I think such a process would add non-trivial complication to the UI for
a rather niche case. For a user wanting a multi nic or disk configured
VM, I would point them at virt-install which easily scales in this
respect. Extra NICs could also be added post install, since I would
think only one would be required for the install process.

My opinion is that this can be solved by some sort of "do not start the
VM and open VM details for fine tuning" option. I am not sure where I've
seen this (VMWare ESX maybe?) but the last page of the wizard contained
checkboxes like "start machine now" and "edit VM details after closing
the wizard". With reasonable default values you can satisfy both
advanced user and a "just to be done" user in a straight-forward way.

Radek



Radek's option seems to make good sense. It also has the added benefit of
being able to create a VM but not starting it and containing the complexity of
the wizard.


This actually leads to another question:
If we select PXE, do subsequent reboots also enable PXE? or is PXE only enable
for the install?


Can we have systems that will always run PXE? eg, stateless/diskless VMs?

-subhendu

--
Subhendu Ghosh
Red Hat
Phone: +1-201-232-2851
Email: sghosh@redhat.com


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Old 03-04-2009, 01:41 PM
Cole Robinson
 
Default RFC: virt-manager: Redesigned 'New VM' wizard

Subhendu Ghosh wrote:
> Radek Hladik wrote:
>> Cole Robinson napsal(a):
>>> Subhendu Ghosh wrote:
>>>> Bryan Kearney wrote:
>>>>> Cole Robinson wrote:
>>>>>> Bryan Kearney wrote:
>>>>>>> Cole Robinson wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>> Also the wizard should support multiple NICs and disks - perhaps from
>>>> step 5 - be able to launch sub-wizards to add nic and add disk?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think such a process would add non-trivial complication to the UI for
>>> a rather niche case. For a user wanting a multi nic or disk configured
>>> VM, I would point them at virt-install which easily scales in this
>>> respect. Extra NICs could also be added post install, since I would
>>> think only one would be required for the install process.
>>>
>> My opinion is that this can be solved by some sort of "do not start
>> the VM and open VM details for fine tuning" option. I am not sure
>> where I've seen this (VMWare ESX maybe?) but the last page of the
>> wizard contained checkboxes like "start machine now" and "edit VM
>> details after closing the wizard". With reasonable default values you
>> can satisfy both advanced user and a "just to be done" user in a
>> straight-forward way.
>> Radek
>>
>
> Radek's option seems to make good sense. It also has the added benefit
> of being able to create a VM but not starting it and containing the
> complexity of the wizard.
>

I agree. Offering to just define the domain and launch the details
wizard for extra tweaking should address anyone with specific
requirements. We would certainly need to fix up things a bit in the
backend to make it work though, so this won't happen for this initial push.

> This actually leads to another question:
> If we select PXE, do subsequent reboots also enable PXE? or is PXE only
> enable for the install?
>
> Can we have systems that will always run PXE? eg, stateless/diskless VMs?
>

If you do a PXE install and skip adding storage (there is a checkbox to
that effect) the VM will boot PXE on every subsequent reboot. If you do
add storage, it will fall back to a HD boot (as though you simply
installed from PXE) but that is a simple change in the VM Details section.

Thanks,
Cole

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