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Old 12-04-2010, 03:36 AM
Stephen John Smoogen
 
Default RFC: Need a Sysadmin Greeter

Ok I am not doing a good job of greeting new people and helping to get
them oriented. For the many people on this list I apologize.


My time for getting people into the group has been overloaded and it
keeps getting put back. So it is time for a new approach... currently
we have a page for getting started, what to expect, and how to get
sponsored... but we have not been good about greeting people and
finding places where their skills match.


http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_be_a_successful_contributor
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/GettingStarted
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/GettingSponsored

We also need to show the separation between groups, sysadmin,
sysadmin-noc, sysadmin-test, sysadmin-main etc. Some groups are going
to take a while for someone to get into (sysadmin-releng and
sysadmin-main) mainly because it is a matter of trust and work. Other
groups are 'easier' to get into but still require trust. Anyway, I
would like to get ideas on how e can do this better and move forward.


--
Stephen J Smoogen.
"The core skill of innovators is error recovery, not failure avoidance."
Randy Nelson, President of Pixar University.
"Let us be kind, one to another, for most of us are fighting a hard
battle." -- Ian MacLaren
_______________________________________________
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infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
 
Old 12-04-2010, 10:36 PM
David Nalley
 
Default RFC: Need a Sysadmin Greeter

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 11:36 PM, Stephen John Smoogen <smooge@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok I am not doing a good job of greeting new people and helping to get
> them oriented. For the many people on this list I apologize.
>
>
> My time for getting people into the group has been overloaded and it
> keeps getting put back. So it is time for a new approach... currently
> we have a page for getting started, what to expect, and how to get
> sponsored... but we have not been good about greeting people and
> finding places where their skills match.
>
>
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_be_a_successful_contributor
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/GettingStarted
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/GettingSponsored
>
> We also need to show the separation between groups, sysadmin,
> sysadmin-noc, sysadmin-test, sysadmin-main etc. Some groups are going
> to take a while for someone to get into (sysadmin-releng and
> sysadmin-main) mainly because it is a matter of trust and work. Other
> groups are 'easier' to get into but still require trust. Anyway, I
> would like to get ideas on how e can do this better and move forward.
>


Well it strikes me that we have a bit of a chicken and egg problem in
many ways. We want people to prove themselves, and gain trust in both
their intentions and competency before we grant access, and yet at the
same time, the core way of getting many things done (puppet) is locked
away and requires access.

So, perhaps that means there needs to be a more formal hierarchy, that
provides a way to show competency and garner trust. Perhaps newcomers
should be required to show up in IRC and watch the flow, and also
orient themselves to the ticket queue. Following there selection of a
FIG, they attract the attention of a sponsor and get the read-only
privileges (similiar to a subset of sysadmin-noc) for that FIG, and
start working on tickets. That level of access is given more freely.
This culminates in the sponsor seeing their work is good and granting
them membership to the FIGs. This effectively creates a senior
sysadmin /junior sysadmin relationship (or perhaps making the sponsors
effective leads that essentially oversee the work of the people being
sponsored until they are sponsored) This is what I have actually seen
happening in many cases, but it's not formalized. This does mean that
sponsors would likely be doing less real work, and more supervising,
which might not appeal to them.

We also probably need to formalize the strata of things, my choice of
colors for this bikeshed would be:

The top level groups are:
sysadmin-main, sysadmin-dba, sysadmin-releng

The intermediate level:
sysadmin-web, sysadmin-cvs, sysadmin-devel, sysadmin-tools, sysadmin-build

The lowest level:
sysadmin-hosted, sysadmin-test, sysadmin-noc

The levels I've selected are somewhat arbitrary, but it's my
perception, not of the level of work, but rather the level of trust
that must be earned before being granted permission to start actively
contributing.

For such a system to be effective, though, we also need to be growing
the sponsors list. I queried zodbot on the sponsors for everything but
the top level. You'll notice there are really only 12 people, most who
are sponsors of multiple FIGs - which means that without growing
sponsors, we'll likely be in the same place.

18:30 <ke4qqq> .sponsors sysadmin-noc
18:30 <zodbot> Sponsors for sysadmin-noc: @mmcgrath nb smooge @susmit
18:30 <ke4qqq> .sponsors sysadmin-hosted
18:30 <zodbot> Sponsors for sysadmin-hosted: @mmcgrath ricky
18:30 <ke4qqq> .sponsors sysadmin-test
18:30 <zodbot> Sponsors for sysadmin-test: jkeating lmacken mdomsch
@mmcgrath nb ricky @skvidal smooge toshio
18:31 <ke4qqq> .sponsors sysadmin-web
18:31 <zodbot> Sponsors for sysadmin-web: jstanley lmacken mdomsch
@mmcgrath nb skvidal @smooge toshio
18:31 <ke4qqq> .sponsors sysadmin-tools
18:31 <zodbot> Sponsors for sysadmin-tools: @ausil jstanley @mmcgrath nb ricky
18:31 <ke4qqq> .sponsors sysadmin-build
18:31 <zodbot> Sponsors for sysadmin-build: @ausil
18:31 <ke4qqq> .sponsors sysadmin-devel
18:32 <zodbot> Sponsors for sysadmin-devel: lmacken @mmcgrath ricky toshio
18:32 <ke4qqq> .sponsors sysadmin-cvs
18:32 <zodbot> Sponsors for sysadmin-cvs: @ausil @mmcgrath notting
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Old 12-04-2010, 10:58 PM
Ricky Elrod
 
Default RFC: Need a Sysadmin Greeter

I kind of agree with your levels of trust there, but one thing I notice(that Mike/mmcgrath has pointed out before) is that we get a lot ofpeople who show interest, get access to some subset of systems
(like -noc, or -test), and then never use it, and just fade out. Orthey send out their introduction email, but never join on IRCand never actually get involved.
I realize -test is kind of more public than the rest, but I think we
should occasionally go through -test and -noc and see who allhas faded out/not used their access. I'd rather people come backin a month asking to be re-sponsored into a group than have access
to things just hanging there, and never be used. The more access,the more entryways into the servers, and the more security risk.
One other thing, I wouldn't put -hosted in the same group as
-noc and -test. -hosted has access to all of fedorahosted.orgwhich hosts quite a lot of projects and gets quite a lot of hits.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts on moving forward. I really like
how open we are to people helping out, and joining the team, I justwish there was a way to filter those who are interested/will stick aroundagainst those who will fade away in two weeks.

- Ricky Elrod

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 6:36 PM, David Nalley <david@gnsa.us> wrote:

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 11:36 PM, Stephen John Smoogen <smooge@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ok I am not doing a good job of greeting new people and helping to get

> them oriented. For the many people on this list I apologize.

>

>

> My time for getting people into the group has been overloaded and it

> keeps getting put back. So it is time for a new approach... currently

> we have a page for getting started, what to expect, and how to get

> sponsored... but we have not been good about greeting people and

> finding places where their skills match.

>

>

> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_be_a_successful_contributor

> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/GettingStarted

> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/GettingSponsored

>

> We also need to show the separation between groups, sysadmin,

> sysadmin-noc, sysadmin-test, sysadmin-main etc. Some groups are going

> to take a while for someone to get into (sysadmin-releng and

> sysadmin-main) mainly because it is a matter of trust and work. Other

> groups are 'easier' to get into but still require trust. Anyway, I

> would like to get ideas on how e can do this better and move forward.

>





Well it strikes me that we have a bit of a chicken and egg problem in

many ways. We want people to prove themselves, and gain trust in both

their intentions and competency before we grant access, and yet at the

same time, the core way of getting many things done (puppet) is locked

away and requires access.



So, perhaps that means there needs to be a more formal hierarchy, that

provides a way to show competency and garner trust. Perhaps newcomers

should be required to show up in IRC and watch the flow, and also

orient themselves to the ticket queue. Following there selection of a

FIG, they attract the attention of a sponsor and get the read-only

privileges (similiar to a subset of sysadmin-noc) for that FIG, and

start working on tickets. That level of access is given more freely.

This culminates in the sponsor seeing their work is good and granting

them membership to the FIGs. This effectively creates a senior

sysadmin /junior sysadmin relationship (or perhaps making the sponsors

effective leads that essentially oversee the work of the people being

sponsored until they are sponsored) This is what I have actually seen

happening in many cases, but it's not formalized. This does mean that

sponsors would likely be doing less real work, and more supervising,

which might not appeal to them.



We also probably need to formalize the strata of things, my choice of

colors for this bikeshed would be:



The top level groups are:

sysadmin-main, sysadmin-dba, sysadmin-releng



The intermediate level:

sysadmin-web, sysadmin-cvs, sysadmin-devel, sysadmin-tools, sysadmin-build



The lowest level:

sysadmin-hosted, sysadmin-test, sysadmin-noc



The levels I've selected are somewhat arbitrary, but it's my

perception, not of the level of work, but rather the level of trust

that must be earned before being granted permission to start actively

contributing.



For such a system to be effective, though, we also need to be growing

the sponsors list. I queried zodbot on the sponsors for everything but

the top level. You'll notice there are really only 12 people, most who

are sponsors of multiple FIGs - which means that without growing

sponsors, we'll likely be in the same place.



18:30 <ke4qqq> .sponsors sysadmin-noc

18:30 <zodbot> Sponsors for sysadmin-noc: @mmcgrath nb smooge @susmit

18:30 <ke4qqq> .sponsors sysadmin-hosted

18:30 <zodbot> Sponsors for sysadmin-hosted: @mmcgrath ricky

18:30 <ke4qqq> .sponsors sysadmin-test

18:30 <zodbot> Sponsors for sysadmin-test: jkeating lmacken mdomsch

@mmcgrath nb ricky @skvidal smooge toshio

18:31 <ke4qqq> .sponsors sysadmin-web

18:31 <zodbot> Sponsors for sysadmin-web: jstanley lmacken mdomsch

@mmcgrath nb skvidal @smooge toshio

18:31 <ke4qqq> .sponsors sysadmin-tools

18:31 <zodbot> Sponsors for sysadmin-tools: @ausil jstanley @mmcgrath nb ricky

18:31 <ke4qqq> .sponsors sysadmin-build

18:31 <zodbot> Sponsors for sysadmin-build: @ausil

18:31 <ke4qqq> .sponsors sysadmin-devel

18:32 <zodbot> Sponsors for sysadmin-devel: lmacken @mmcgrath ricky toshio

18:32 <ke4qqq> .sponsors sysadmin-cvs

18:32 <zodbot> Sponsors for sysadmin-cvs: @ausil @mmcgrath notting

_______________________________________________

infrastructure mailing list

infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure



_______________________________________________
infrastructure mailing list
infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
 
Old 12-04-2010, 11:08 PM
David Nalley
 
Default RFC: Need a Sysadmin Greeter

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Ricky Elrod <codeblock@elrod.me> wrote:
> I kind of agree with your levels of trust there, but one thing I notice
> (that Mike/mmcgrath has pointed out before) is that we get a lot of
> people who show interest, get access to some subset of systems
> (like -noc, or -test), and then never use it, and just fade out. Or
> they send out their introduction email, but never join on IRC
> and never actually get involved.
> I realize -test is kind of more public than the rest, but I think we
> should occasionally go through -test and -noc and see who all
> has faded out/not used their access. I'd rather people come back
> in a month asking to be re-sponsored into a group than have access
> to things just hanging there, and never be used. The more access,
> the more entryways into the servers, and the more security risk.

I don't disagree

I guess I thought it just happened based on this:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/GettingSponsored#Grounds_for_removal

Actually 6 months seems a bit 'long' to me. Perhaps that should change
to 1 or 2 months. Trust and competence are important, and aren't
necessarily erased by a few months difference, but with the rate of
change, things can significantly change in the environment, and that's
worth the extra effort of getting 'reacquiainted' before getting
access back.

Perhaps we also set a minimum time for people to get sponsored - eg,
you get read only access, but that expires in 90 days - and we purge
that access. You can reapply of course, but that would keep people
from continuing to login perpetually with RO access.
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