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Old 12-11-2007, 12:02 PM
Jeroen van Meeuwen
 
Default Jigdo - A Professional Letter to Mike McGrath

Jesse Keating wrote:

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 00:41:24 +0100
Jeroen van Meeuwen <kanarip@kanarip.com> wrote:


We on the other hand have hundreds -if not thousands- of users
download the CD version of Fedora 7 and Fedora 8 while supposedly
they are in possession of the DVD images already.


What makes you say that? When I poked at fedoraunity.org the only
download option I saw was jigdo, so how are you determining that these
people are using jigdo by choice rather than by necessity?



I don't think I said anything about those users /choosing/ to use Jigdo,
but if I was likely to be misunderstood in that aspect I apologize.


Talking about necessity though, users interested in the Fedora 9
Everything Spin would need to use Jigdo as it is the only way anyone
offers it (officially).


Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

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Old 12-11-2007, 01:38 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Jigdo - A Professional Letter to Mike McGrath

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:02:48 +0100
Jeroen van Meeuwen <kanarip@kanarip.com> wrote:

> I don't think I said anything about those users /choosing/ to use
> Jigdo, but if I was likely to be misunderstood in that aspect I
> apologize.

Ok, Michael was talking about choosing, which is what led me to assume
that you were too.

--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours?
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Old 12-11-2007, 07:47 PM
Jonathan Steffan
 
Default Jigdo - A Professional Letter to Mike McGrath

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:55:47 -0500
Michael DeHaan <mdehaan@redhat.com> wrote:

> Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
> > Mike McGrath wrote:
> >>> and we were going to
> >>>> judge jigdo a success if a certain % (compared to bittorrent)
> >>>> use jigdo. What % would that be?
> >>>
> >>> Jigdo would in this case be particularly useful to those with a
> >>> local mirror as they have 99% of the content already (90% if you
> >>> have F9T3?). Because it is particularly useful to some, and
> >>> completely weird and strange for others, the number of users that
> >>> will use it if BitTorrent is an alternative wouldn't be a very
> >>> good indicator to see if it is actually a viable distribution
> >>> method for the whole of Fedora, neither is it the goal for these
> >>> proposals.
> >>
> >> I'm talking specifically about people going to the get-fedora page
> >> and clicking on the torrent link vs the jigdo link. Out of every
> >> 100 people, how many people will click on the jigdo link?
> >>
> Jigdo did not seem to be very popular among anyone I talked to once
> they figured out the minimal install images were available.

I will admit, our poll on spins.fedoraunity.org showed that more users
want to use BitTorrent. I still think these users just had no concept
of what Jigdo is *good* at and were left to deal with our growing pains
setting everything up. We do apologize for that. We do, however, 110%
support Jigdo in many cases:

* Testing images can easily be "upgraded" to the next release, only
downloading what has changed
* Re-Spins: The same goes for Re-Spins, an end users (and the testers)
can easily "update" their ISO, again, only having to download what has
changed
* Any Spin: Not all mirrors chose to carry the ISO images. A next-hop
or local mirror might not be available with the ISO images for direct
download. This very close mirror will be able to be used to "put
together" the ISO image and with our awesome new MirrorManager the
acquisition of this data source will be automatic.
* Bandwidth Optimization/Utilization: We are able to utilize mirrors
around the globe without requiring mirror admins to think twice about
hosting Jigdo data, they already are hosting most of the data needed to
put the image back together and have to install no additional software
(as in the case of running a torrent seed.)
* Official Releases: This "letter" was directed at requesting all
updates be archived in some form; this bullet is about official
releases. These official releases will *always* be able to be hosted
via Jigdo with *very little* additional storage requirements because
the Fedora and Everything trees that were composed against are exploded
and hosted indefinitely.

Please do understand that some of our ambitions are based around
releasing an optimized, and if need-be completely rewritten, client that
will solve a lot of the issues people have had with Jigdo in the past.
The only client I know of that works is jigdo-lite and that is just a
shell script. We currently are maintaining backwards compatibility with
the existing Jigdo concept (pyjigdo being basically just a wrapper) but
might find we need to take it to the next level due to needs outside of
the scope of the original Jigdo and my plan has been to implement full
compatibility in pure python and then add new bells and whistles that
can be switched on and off, depending on the source .jigdo definition.

--
Jonathan Steffan
daMaestro
GPG Fingerprint: 93A2 3E2F DC26 5570 3472 5B16 AD12 6CE7 0D86 AF59

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Old 12-12-2007, 06:23 AM
"Imtiaz Rahi"
 
Default Jigdo - A Professional Letter to Mike McGrath

On Dec 12, 2007 2:47 AM, Jonathan Steffan <jonathansteffan@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:55:47 -0500
Michael DeHaan <mdehaan@redhat.com> wrote:

> Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
> > Mike McGrath wrote:

> >>> *and we were going to
> >>>> judge jigdo a success if a certain % (compared to bittorrent)
> >>>> use jigdo. *What % would that be?
> >>>
> >>> Jigdo would in this case be particularly useful to those with a

> >>> local mirror as they have 99% of the content already (90% if you
> >>> have F9T3?). Because it is particularly useful to some, and
> >>> completely weird and strange for others, the number of users that

> >>> will use it if BitTorrent is an alternative wouldn't be a very
> >>> good indicator to see if it is actually a viable distribution
> >>> method for the whole of Fedora, neither is it the goal for these

> >>> proposals.
> >>
> >> I'm talking specifically about people going to the get-fedora page
> >> and clicking on the torrent link vs the jigdo link. *Out of every

> >> 100 people, how many people will click on the jigdo link?
> >>
> Jigdo did not seem to be very popular among anyone I talked to once
> they figured out the minimal install images were available.


I will admit, our poll on spins.fedoraunity.org showed that more users
want to use BitTorrent. I still think these users just had no concept
of what Jigdo is *good* at and were left to deal with our growing pains

setting everything up. We do apologize for that. We do, however, 110%
support Jigdo in many cases:

* Testing images can easily be "upgraded" to the next release, only
downloading what has changed

* Re-Spins: The same goes for Re-Spins, an end users (and the testers)
can easily "update" their ISO, again, only having to download what has
changed
* Any Spin: Not all mirrors chose to carry the ISO images. A next-hop

or local mirror might not be available with the ISO images for direct
download. This very close mirror will be able to be used to "put
together" the ISO image and with our awesome new MirrorManager the

acquisition of this data source will be automatic.
* Bandwidth Optimization/Utilization: We are able to utilize mirrors
around the globe without requiring mirror admins to think twice about
hosting Jigdo data, they already are hosting most of the data needed to

put the image back together and have to install no additional software
(as in the case of running a torrent seed.)
* Official Releases: This "letter" was directed at requesting all
updates be archived in some form; this bullet is about official

releases. These official releases will *always* be able to be hosted
via Jigdo with *very little* additional storage requirements because
the Fedora and Everything trees that were composed against are exploded

and hosted indefinitely.*Jigdo support will be a fantastic addition definitely. Bandwidth is very costly in my country. So, using jigdo makes a lot of sense to me.
Have not yet done it just for proper knowhow.


Cheers,
Imtiaz


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Old 12-12-2007, 10:18 AM
Francois Petillon
 
Default Jigdo - A Professional Letter to Mike McGrath

Jonathan Steffan wrote:

* Any Spin: Not all mirrors chose to carry the ISO images. A next-hop
or local mirror might not be available with the ISO images for direct
download. This very close mirror will be able to be used to "put
together" the ISO image and with our awesome new MirrorManager the
acquisition of this data source will be automatic.
* Bandwidth Optimization/Utilization: We are able to utilize mirrors
around the globe without requiring mirror admins to think twice about
hosting Jigdo data, they already are hosting most of the data needed to
put the image back together and have to install no additional software
(as in the case of running a torrent seed.)


I will speak as a mirror admin (ftp.free.fr/ftp.proxad.net). As far as I
am concerned, bandwidth is not a real issue but disk IOs are. Disk
capacity is growing exponentially, sequential access bandwidth grows
linearly but disk seeks decrease at a very slow pace (SSD are coming but
they do not match yet the needed capacity). Thus, improving server
performances means either adding more disks or optimizing disks access
(ie reading more data per each disk seeks).


The "biggest" mirrors I manage are stored on a two-disks RAID1 volume
(to avoid stripping which induce disks seeks) and IO are optimized by
doing 1 MB chunk readahead (using posix_fadvise). If I need additionnal
bandwidth, I may increase the readahead chunk size. But this is usable
only if the file I read is big enough (and if the fragmentation is kept
low).


As long as jigdo use is uncommon, I just don't mind but if it had to be
commonly used, it would mean a very sensible decrease in performances.


François

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Old 12-15-2007, 04:53 AM
Jonathan Steffan
 
Default Jigdo - A Professional Letter to Mike McGrath

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:18:31 +0100
Francois Petillon <fantec@proxad.net> wrote:

> I will speak as a mirror admin (ftp.free.fr/ftp.proxad.net). As far
> as I am concerned, bandwidth is not a real issue but disk IOs are.

-SNIP-

> As long as jigdo use is uncommon, I just don't mind but if it had to
> be commonly used, it would mean a very sensible decrease in
> performances.

So, you are against deltarpms also then?

The access time for the data being served as a Jigdo would be the same
as anyone using yum against your mirror source. Also, in most cases
download requests would be spread across multiple sources... though this
can be changed by an end user or by the behavior of MirrorManager
redirection results.

--
Jonathan Steffan
daMaestro
GPG Fingerprint: 93A2 3E2F DC26 5570 3472 5B16 AD12 6CE7 0D86 AF59

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