FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 02-02-2011, 04:15 PM
Camaleón
 
Default help

On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 17:01:32 +0000, Lisi wrote:

> On Wednesday 02 February 2011 14:42:30 Camaleón wrote:
>> I don't think so, it's just I have another POV.
>
> Yes, quite. But the thing on which you have a different pov is what a
> newbie is. Which is semantic not technical.

I don't think the main point of this thread is about "newbie" definition.
I've only pointed out that:

- An expert install is not exclusively meant for "experts" nor for
"massive installations" but for people who wants to customize his/her
install.

- In Debian we are lucky enough to have both options available and easily
selectable ("root" logins and/or "sudo") and that saying "hey, run this
command: sudo this" is not a symptom of using Ubuntu.

No more, no less :-)

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: pan.2011.02.02.17.15.13@gmail.com">http://lists.debian.org/pan.2011.02.02.17.15.13@gmail.com
 
Old 02-02-2011, 04:43 PM
Lisi
 
Default help

On Wednesday 02 February 2011 17:15:13 Camaleón wrote:
> I don't think the main point of this thread is about "newbie" definition.
> I've only pointed out that:

It was in origin - which is what I was sticking to. So what we were failing
to meet on was what the thread was about!

A self avowed newbie (and the assertion appeared credible!) had asked for
help - he was the OP of this thread - and been given advice to use an
application which a newbie wouldn't have (since it is not in the default
install) to install a package that doesn't exist, since he had said that he
uses Lenny, and it isn't in Lenny.

That is where I have been coming from throughout. A newbie who was given
what, for him, was totally inappropriate advice.

I have no difficulty at all in agreeing with you about the capabilities of
Debian!! Just that they are inappropriate for this particular OP.

So I hope we have reached agreement?? I am now clear that all we were
disagreeing over was the OP and therefore the purpose of the thread. :-)

Pax??

Lisi


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 201102021743.59312.lisi.reisz@gmail.com">http://lists.debian.org/201102021743.59312.lisi.reisz@gmail.com
 
Old 02-02-2011, 05:32 PM
Camaleón
 
Default help

On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 17:43:59 +0000, Lisi wrote:

> On Wednesday 02 February 2011 17:15:13 Camaleón wrote:
>> I don't think the main point of this thread is about "newbie"
>> definition. I've only pointed out that:
>
> It was in origin - which is what I was sticking to. So what we were
> failing to meet on was what the thread was about!

But I din't reply to anything about that. I started participating in this
thread by replying to Chris, mainly for explaining the "expert" install
and what that option was for.

> A self avowed newbie (and the assertion appeared credible!) had asked
> for help - he was the OP of this thread - and been given advice to use
> an application which a newbie wouldn't have (since it is not in the
> default install) to install a package that doesn't exist, since he had
> said that he uses Lenny, and it isn't in Lenny.
>
> That is where I have been coming from throughout. A newbie who was
> given what, for him, was totally inappropriate advice.

Threads like this tend to fork into many small "sub-threads", where
people starts talking on other things maybe not straight-related to the
first OP message, that's normal. And that was my case. If I would have
wanted to reply on that, I had replied to the OP directly :-)

> I have no difficulty at all in agreeing with you about the capabilities
> of Debian!! Just that they are inappropriate for this particular OP.
>
> So I hope we have reached agreement?? I am now clear that all we were
> disagreeing over was the OP and therefore the purpose of the thread. :-)
>
> Pax??

Okay, but don't get used to it X-)

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: pan.2011.02.02.18.32.06@gmail.com">http://lists.debian.org/pan.2011.02.02.18.32.06@gmail.com
 
Old 02-02-2011, 06:52 PM
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."
 
Default help

In <20110202113302.GH3865@fischer>, Chris Bannister wrote:
>On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 12:37:05AM -0600, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
>> In <20110131040038.GA3315@fischer>, Chris Bannister wrote:
>> >On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 02:40:01PM +0200, Andrei Popescu wrote:
>> >> If you do an expert install you are offered the choice to disable root
>> >> logins and use sudo instead. Yes, this is on Debian, squeeze installer.
>> >
>> >Oh! ok. Then again, "expert" does imply that you know what you are
>> >doing, which seems a bit backwards.
>>
>> I maintain that experts will be more likely to use sudo than su. It
>> provides better granularity and helps avoid password sharing. A password
>> shared is a password compromised.
>
>Right. But being the expert you probably won't be asking questions where
>the answer is something like "sudo <whatever>"

It's more rare, but it's not unheard of. My google-fu keeps most of my
questions off the list anyway.

"sudo " is shorter than saying "as the root user: ". "su -c " is longer than
"sudo ". Explaining how and when to "su -" and "exit" is usually longer than
any of them. None of them are correct on all systems.

So, it's not about being correct. It's about being both terse and
descriptive at the same time.

If the reply comes back with "su doesn't work" or "sudo doesn't work", you
can see they missed the point entirely and educate them about what is "being
root", the dangers of "being root", and how to do it on various Debian-alike
systems.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
 
Old 02-02-2011, 07:04 PM
Bob Proulx
 
Default help

Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> "sudo " is shorter than saying "as the root user: ". "su -c " is
> longer than "sudo ". Explaining how and when to "su -" and "exit"
> is usually longer than any of them. None of them are correct on all
> systems.
>
> So, it's not about being correct. It's about being both terse and
> descriptive at the same time.
>
> If the reply comes back with "su doesn't work" or "sudo doesn't
> work", you can see they missed the point entirely and educate them
> about what is "being root", the dangers of "being root", and how to
> do it on various Debian-alike systems.

Full agreement! These excellently presented reasons are why I use
'sudo' in my explanations and will continue to do so.

Bob
 
Old 02-03-2011, 12:13 AM
Joey Hess
 
Default help

Camaleón wrote:
> Should you want to use sudo, you can select it with the expert install or
> you can configure after the installation (if standard root login was
> selected).

There is no need to use any expert install option with squeeze. Simply
follow the instructions it presents:

You need to set a password for 'root', the system administrative
account. [...]

The root user should not have an empty password. If you leave this
empty, the root account will be disabled and the system's initial user
account will be given the power to become root using the "sudo"
command.

Root password: _

--
see shy jo
 
Old 02-03-2011, 12:17 AM
Chris Bannister
 
Default help

On Wed, Feb 02, 2011 at 01:04:58PM -0700, Bob Proulx wrote:
> Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> > If the reply comes back with "su doesn't work" or "sudo doesn't
> > work", you can see they missed the point entirely and educate them
> > about what is "being root", the dangers of "being root", and how to
> > do it on various Debian-alike systems.
>
> Full agreement! These excellently presented reasons are why I use
> 'sudo' in my explanations and will continue to do so.

It would be interesting to know how many Ubuntu users ask advice on this
list. AFAIR, there have been a couple of posts from Ubuntu users because
they felt that they weren't getting much help from the Ubuntu
forums/lists.


--
"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 20110203011708.GA18797@fischer">http://lists.debian.org/20110203011708.GA18797@fischer
 
Old 02-03-2011, 01:11 AM
Chris Bannister
 
Default help

On Wed, Feb 02, 2011 at 02:24:01PM +0000, Lisi wrote:
>
> Chris - I am beginning to think that Chamaleón's problem understanding what we
> are on about, may be semantic.

I may be underestimating the knowledge that a newbie may have. But I
prefer to err on the side of caution. You quite often get an idea of
what their knowledge is by the content of their post.

If someone posts to this list they are (usually) looking for help. They
may be trying Debian/Linux for the first time and their experience may be
non-existant. It is difficult to see the "trees" if all you can see is
a "forest", etc.

There are some people who think "If the user doesn't have a clue, then
they shouldn't be using Debian." I can see both sides as I know a couple
of computer users who are thinking of trying Linux but are skeptical of
taking the leap and who I know would have no trouble once they "got into
it." In fact, once they "got into it" would most likely start
contributing.

If they are trying it for the first time, problems executing the
commands they are given could sway them to ditch it entirely?

--
"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 20110203021140.GB18797@fischer">http://lists.debian.org/20110203021140.GB18797@fischer
 
Old 02-03-2011, 01:15 AM
Chris Bannister
 
Default help

On Wed, Feb 02, 2011 at 02:42:30PM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
> > PS As I have said to Chris, I think that your problem understanding what
> > we are saying may be semantic.
>
> I don't think so, it's just I have another POV.

Isn't that the same thing?

--
"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 20110203021519.GC18797@fischer">http://lists.debian.org/20110203021519.GC18797@fischer
 
Old 02-03-2011, 10:54 AM
Camaleón
 
Default help

On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 21:13:37 -0400, Joey Hess wrote:

> Camaleón wrote:
>> Should you want to use sudo, you can select it with the expert install
>> or you can configure after the installation (if standard root login was
>> selected).
>
> There is no need to use any expert install option with squeeze.

(...)

Good to know (because I didn't know, as I've never select the normal
install) :-)

Well, if that option is possible even in the common installation setup, I
can't see why is people complaining about this "sudo/su" thing...

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: pan.2011.02.03.11.54.45@gmail.com">http://lists.debian.org/pan.2011.02.03.11.54.45@gmail.com
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 10:38 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright ©2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org