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Old 02-02-2011, 11:30 AM
Lisi
 
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On Wednesday 02 February 2011 11:59:28 Camaleón wrote:
> Hum... if I interpreted correctly your words, you think "sudo" is
> intended for non-expert users and I don't think so, but the opposite:
> "sudo" (as I see) is for people who know what involves and what it means
> and not many newbies know very well how permissions are managed in their
> systems and don't care mu

I read this completely the other way round, as meaning that anyone expert
enough to install and configure sudo in Debian, wouldn't be asking simple
questions. Newbies in Debian wouldn't be using sudo at all, so mentioning it
to them is not helpful.

Ubuntu newbies, of course, would be using sudo, but should not be on this
list.

Ergo, any newbie asking questions on this list has not got sudo. (The
conclusion I too had come to right at the beginning of this thread.)

Lisi


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Old 02-02-2011, 11:49 AM
Camaleón
 
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On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 12:30:49 +0000, Lisi wrote:

> On Wednesday 02 February 2011 11:59:28 Camaleón wrote:
>> Hum... if I interpreted correctly your words, you think "sudo" is
>> intended for non-expert users and I don't think so, but the opposite:
>> "sudo" (as I see) is for people who know what involves and what it
>> means and not many newbies know very well how permissions are managed
>> in their systems and don't care mu
>
> I read this completely the other way round, as meaning that anyone
> expert enough to install and configure sudo in Debian, wouldn't be
> asking simple questions. Newbies in Debian wouldn't be using sudo at
> all, so mentioning it to them is not helpful.

I don't get it, Lisi.

In Debian you can easily go for one or another path.

Should you want to use sudo, you can select it with the expert install or
you can configure after the installation (if standard root login was
selected).

> Ubuntu newbies, of course, would be using sudo, but should not be on
> this list.

He, he... so you think? :-)

> Ergo, any newbie asking questions on this list has not got sudo. (The
> conclusion I too had come to right at the beginning of this thread.)

I think any Ubuntu user that now is using Debian would of course ask
where is "sudo" and probably want to have it setup also in Debian, which
is an easy task.

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 02-02-2011, 01:08 PM
Chris Bannister
 
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On Wed, Feb 02, 2011 at 11:59:28AM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
> Hum... if I interpreted correctly your words, you think "sudo" is
> intended for non-expert users and I don't think so, but the opposite:
> "sudo" (as I see) is for people who know what involves and what it means
> and not many newbies know very well how permissions are managed in their
> systems and don't care much on security considerations.
>
> In brief: if you know what "sudo" is for, you should not have any problem
> to configure it ;-)

If you know what is for then you'd know to put sudo before any command
that you should execute as root.

But Ubuntu configures it automatically AIUI and there is the occassional
Ubuntu user asking questions on *this* list where the advice "sudo
<whatever>" will work but may not be the correct advice for an Ubuntu
system.

But for a new Debian user (either an ex Windows or ex Ubuntu user), the
advice "sudo <whatever>" won't work[1] and just may confuse the poor
bugger.

There used to be a time when commands to be executed as a normal user
would be preceeded by a '$' and commands to be executed as root would be
preceeded by a '#'. This is a safer method and makes all the problems I can
forsee non existant[2]


[1] Unless they choose expert install from the Squeeze installer. But
then it is their choice to use sudo, and not us assuming they have
it configured.

[2] - An Ubuntu user won't complain that their system is now buggered
because of the "help" they got from this list.

- A new user will learn the difference between being root and just a
normal user.

--
"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte


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Old 02-02-2011, 01:15 PM
Camaleón
 
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On Thu, 03 Feb 2011 03:08:35 +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 02, 2011 at 11:59:28AM +0000, Camaleón wrote:

>> Hum... if I interpreted correctly your words, you think "sudo" is
>> intended for non-expert users and I don't think so, but the opposite:
>> "sudo" (as I see) is for people who know what involves and what it
>> means and not many newbies know very well how permissions are managed
>> in their systems and don't care much on security considerations.
>>
>> In brief: if you know what "sudo" is for, you should not have any
>> problem to configure it ;-)
>
> If you know what is for then you'd know to put sudo before any command
> that you should execute as root.

That sounds pretty obvious.

> But Ubuntu configures it automatically AIUI and there is the occassional
> Ubuntu user asking questions on *this* list where the advice "sudo
> <whatever>" will work but may not be the correct advice for an Ubuntu
> system.

That shouldn't be a problem at all. In such case we only have to instruct
the user about the right command, not very complicated.

> But for a new Debian user (either an ex Windows or ex Ubuntu user), the
> advice "sudo <whatever>" won't work[1] and just may confuse the poor
> bugger.

Confussion is not bad, it provides "an extra" of experience. A little of
patience and all can be done flawlessly, I still don't see any problem
with that. Every distribution has its own defaults but the same base
remains. "Sudo" works on Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, openSUSE... <put here
the name of the distro you want>. It's not a default setting in Debian,
right, but it is an option. KDE is not a "default" neither but should be
avoid replying here all KDE-related topics? ;-)

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 02-02-2011, 01:20 PM
Lisi
 
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On Wednesday 02 February 2011 12:49:30 Camaleón wrote:
> I don't get it, Lisi.
>
> In Debian you can easily go for one or another path.

Yes, but _not_ a newbie. The default does not give you sudo. A newbie would
be using the default.

An Ubuntu user who has migrated to Debian is by definition not a newbie.

Lisi


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Old 02-02-2011, 01:24 PM
Lisi
 
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On Wednesday 02 February 2011 14:08:35 Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 02, 2011 at 11:59:28AM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
> > Hum... if I interpreted correctly your words, you think "sudo" is
> > intended for non-expert users and I don't think so, but the opposite:
> > "sudo" (as I see) is for people who know what involves and what it means
> > and not many newbies know very well how permissions are managed in their
> > systems and don't care much on security considerations.
> >
> > In brief: if you know what "sudo" is for, you should not have any problem
> > to configure it ;-)
>
> If you know what is for then you'd know to put sudo before any command
> that you should execute as root.
>
> But Ubuntu configures it automatically AIUI and there is the occassional
> Ubuntu user asking questions on *this* list where the advice "sudo
> <whatever>" will work but may not be the correct advice for an Ubuntu
> system.
>
> But for a new Debian user (either an ex Windows or ex Ubuntu user), the
> advice "sudo <whatever>" won't work[1] and just may confuse the poor
> bugger.
>
> There used to be a time when commands to be executed as a normal user
> would be preceeded by a '$' and commands to be executed as root would be
> preceeded by a '#'. This is a safer method and makes all the problems I can
> forsee non existant[2]
>
>
> [1] Unless they choose expert install from the Squeeze installer. But
> then it is their choice to use sudo, and not us assuming they have
> it configured.
>
> [2] - An Ubuntu user won't complain that their system is now buggered
> because of the "help" they got from this list.
>
> - A new user will learn the difference between being root and just a
> normal user.
>
> --
> "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."
> -- Napoleon Bonaparte

Chris - I am beginning to think that Chamaleón's problem understanding what we
are on about, may be semantic.

Lisi


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Old 02-02-2011, 01:27 PM
Lisi
 
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On Wednesday 02 February 2011 14:15:13 Camaleón wrote:
> should be
> avoid replying here all KDE-related topics? ;-)

Yes, if a newbie is talking about GNOME, we should ceratinly avoid muddying
the water by bringing KDE into the discussion.

Lisi

PS As I have said to Chris, I think that your problem understanding what we
are saying may be semantic.


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Old 02-02-2011, 01:37 PM
Camaleón
 
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On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 14:20:40 +0000, Lisi wrote:

> On Wednesday 02 February 2011 12:49:30 Camaleón wrote:
>> I don't get it, Lisi.
>>
>> In Debian you can easily go for one or another path.
>
> Yes, but _not_ a newbie. The default does not give you sudo. A newbie
> would be using the default.

A newbie should use whatever the default is. Period.

> An Ubuntu user who has migrated to Debian is by definition not a newbie.

Ubuntu thinks "sudo" is for newbies, Debian doesn't. And in this case I
agree with Debian's policy :-)

Greetings,

--
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Old 02-02-2011, 01:42 PM
Camaleón
 
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On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 14:27:34 +0000, Lisi wrote:

> On Wednesday 02 February 2011 14:15:13 Camaleón wrote:
>> should be
>> avoid replying here all KDE-related topics? ;-)
>
> Yes, if a newbie is talking about GNOME, we should ceratinly avoid
> muddying the water by bringing KDE into the discussion.

- KDE is not the default
- sudo is not the default
- KDE is like sudo (in this scope)

So, if a user using KDE asks anything related to KDE, should we stop
replying just because is not using a default setting? No, of course. The
same goes with sudo.

I hope all is clear now :-)

> PS As I have said to Chris, I think that your problem understanding what
> we are saying may be semantic.

I don't think so, it's just I have another POV.

Greetings,

--
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Old 02-02-2011, 04:01 PM
Lisi
 
Default help

On Wednesday 02 February 2011 14:42:30 Camaleón wrote:
> I don't think so, it's just I have another POV.

Yes, quite. But the thing on which you have a different pov is what a newbie
is. Which is semantic not technical.

Lisi


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