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Old 05-10-2008, 08:53 PM
George Billios
 
Default Xorg 1.5 missed the train?

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Xorg 1.5 missed the train?
From: Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list@redhat.com>
Date: Sat 10 May 2008 11:17:37 PM EEST


On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 11:32 AM, George Billios <gbillios@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

It seems that Xorg 1.5 will not be part of F9 - how could it since it is not
even released yet.

This raises the (theoretical - fedora 9 will ship either way) question,
should fedora ship with an development version of Xorg ?


I think you mean Xorg 7.4... which xorg-server 1.5 will be one component of.


So you mean that you can ship one without the other ? ;|


This is a non-issue. We've released pre-release components before for
other important components. And we will continue doing it as long as
their is trust that the maintainers on the components are working
closely and actively with upstream with regard to patching the bugs.
Did you happen to have a specific upstream Xorg release 7.4 blocker
bug in mind that you are particularly concerned about?



Somehow I doubt its important for us to slip a major component like
xorg-server over something like an alpha architecture compiling bug
which isn't relevant to Fedora's ability to ship a usable xorg-server
to our users...at all. And you have to also concede that Xorg bugs
dating to up to a year prior to the release of X11R7.3 probably aren't
going to be hard blockers on X11R7.4 either. Even upstream realizes
that you can't fix all the bugs before you make a release.


Now its too late to change anything but I would appreciate some input here
because it's a big deal to ship with a development version of one of the
most important components.


it's less of a big deal than you make it out to be. We've done this
before with 'major' componetns.... we'll do it again. You have to
accept the fact we are never going to be able to ship 100% bug-free
code on release day.. no matter how much we slip any particular
release deadline. Bugs will exist, and decisions have to be made
concern the severity and impact of those bugs individually. All bugs
are not made equal. It's the same process upstream projects go
through. And it may very well be that the important bugs blocking an
upstream release are out of scope for a Fedora release specifically.
if you are not watching the upstream process closely then you are not
in a position to make an informed judgment.

We put a significant amount of integration testing into the new the
xorg components as they haven been coming along, and if the maintainer
in question felt things were not in good shape in terms where upstream
was at we would have regressed by now.




I'm not reffering to any bug in particular but to the whole 'trying to
release Xorg 7.4 based on F9 release schedule' concept that happened here.



True, I don't know and monitor every bug that has been reported in
fedora bugzilla or upstream but taking into account that Xorg 7.4
doesn't even have a RC and that 2 months ago everything was supposed to
be going as scheduled, I had to ask. Besides searching the mail list I
found zero issues about this in the last 2 months!





-jef"wonders when you'll notice how far away from current upstream
'release' our F9 gdm is"spaleta



Don't let me start on gdm....

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Old 05-10-2008, 08:54 PM
"Mark Bidewell"
 
Default Xorg 1.5 missed the train?

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 4:17 PM, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 11:32 AM, George Billios <gbillios@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi All,

>

> It seems that Xorg 1.5 will not be part of F9 - how could it since it is not

> even released yet.

>

> This raises the (theoretical - fedora 9 will ship either way) question,

> should fedora ship with an development version of Xorg ?



I think you mean Xorg 7.4... which xorg-server 1.5 will be one component of.



This is a non-issue. We've released pre-release components before for

other important components. *And we will continue doing it as long as

their is trust that the maintainers on the components are working

closely and actively with upstream with regard to patching the bugs.

Did you happen to have a specific upstream Xorg release 7.4 blocker

bug in mind that you are particularly concerned about?



Somehow I doubt its important for us to slip a major component like

xorg-server over something like an alpha architecture compiling bug

which isn't relevant to Fedora's ability to ship a usable xorg-server

to our users...at all. * And you have to also concede that Xorg bugs

dating to up to a year prior to the release of X11R7.3 probably aren't

going to be hard blockers on X11R7.4 either. Even upstream realizes

that you can't fix all the bugs before you make a release.



> Now its too late to change anything but I would appreciate some input here

> because it's a big deal to ship with a development version of one of the

> most important components.



it's less of a big deal than you make it out to be. We've done this

before with 'major' componetns.... we'll do it again. *You have to

accept the fact we are never going to be able to ship 100% bug-free

code on release day.. no matter how much we slip any particular

release deadline. *Bugs will exist, and decisions have to be made

concern the severity and impact of those bugs individually. *All bugs

are not made equal. *It's the same process upstream projects go

through. And it may very well be that the important bugs blocking an

upstream release are out of scope for a Fedora release specifically.

if you are not watching the upstream process closely then you are not

in a position to make an informed judgment.



We put a significant amount of integration testing into the new the

xorg components as they haven been coming along, and if the maintainer

in question felt things were not in good shape in terms where upstream

was at we would have regressed by now.





-jef"wonders when you'll notice how far away from current upstream

'release' our F9 gdm is"spaleta



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As a side question to this - Will fedora continue to push xorg updates for F9 after release?

Mark Bidewell

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Old 05-10-2008, 09:01 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Xorg 1.5 missed the train?

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 12:53 PM, George Billios <gbillios@gmail.com> wrote:
> True, I don't know and monitor every bug that has been reported in fedora
> bugzilla or upstream but taking into account that Xorg 7.4 doesn't even have
> a RC and that 2 months ago everything was supposed to be going as scheduled,
> I had to ask. Besides searching the mail list I found zero issues about this
> in the last 2 months!

So the fact that there are no communicated issues makes you think
there's a problem? Isn't that sort of backwards? And shouldn't be
asking specifically on the upstream lists what the current roadmap for
them looks like? The Fedora distribution release schedule has been
clearly communicated, even the slips have been. If the upstream
process is opaque, then perhaps you should go stomping around on the
upstream list asking for some clarity on where their release plans
stand. Even if ajax is wearing multiple hats... communications about
Xorg's 7.4 release schedule should be done in the Xorg communication
channels so everyone who is waiting for it can find the information.
Having this discussion here, is just going to make it more difficult
for the other distributors to find.

-jef

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Old 05-10-2008, 09:23 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Xorg 1.5 missed the train?

2008/5/10 Mark Bidewell <mark.bidewell@alumni.clemson.edu>:
> As a side question to this - Will fedora continue to push xorg updates for
> F9 after release?

I simply cannot fathom why this question even needs to be asked.
Haven't we seen updates for the X11 components in F8 through the F8
release cycle to date? Didn't we just see an F8 update for
xorg-x11-server-Xorg in March? There is absolutely no evidence to
suggest X hasn't been actively updated in the recent past, so I don't
see the point in asking the question.

And more to the point. The whole reason why the monolithic codebase
was converted to individual components was to make it easier to roll
up updates as individual libraries and drivers needed to be patched,
rebuilt and distributed to users. I think we've made adequate use of
that modularity so far in how we are updating, and I don't see a
reason to expect that to change.

-jef

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Old 05-11-2008, 12:36 AM
Josh Boyer
 
Default Xorg 1.5 missed the train?

On Sat, 10 May 2008 13:23:59 -0800
"Jeff Spaleta" <jspaleta@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2008/5/10 Mark Bidewell <mark.bidewell@alumni.clemson.edu>:
> > As a side question to this - Will fedora continue to push xorg updates for
> > F9 after release?
>
> I simply cannot fathom why this question even needs to be asked.

Maybe, just maybe, the asker doesn't follow Fedora regularly. Maybe
they don't understand our update policies and infrastructures. Maybe
they're coming directly from a different operating system and this is
their first exposure to Fedora and Linux.

So, rather than monologue about past history and examples and give them
a dictation of why xorg is packaged they way it is and generally treat
them as if they were simpletons, maybe you could just answer:

"Yes. We continue to push updates after a release based on several
factors. This includes many things like Xorg and the kernel."

And then maybe you would have been helpful enough with that answer that
the asker would see Fedora is a welcoming place. And maybe we would
have garnered another user. So next time you're fathoming, maybe you
can fathom that not everyone uses Linux on a daily basis, and new users
do come along.

Maybe.

josh

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Old 05-11-2008, 12:56 AM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Xorg 1.5 missed the train?

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 10 May 2008 13:23:59 -0800
> "Jeff Spaleta" <jspaleta@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 2008/5/10 Mark Bidewell <mark.bidewell@alumni.clemson.edu>:
>> > As a side question to this - Will fedora continue to push xorg updates for
>> > F9 after release?
>>
>> I simply cannot fathom why this question even needs to be asked.
>
> Maybe, just maybe, the asker doesn't follow Fedora regularly. Maybe
> they don't understand our update policies and infrastructures. Maybe
> they're coming directly from a different operating system and this is
> their first exposure to Fedora and Linux.

In the particular case of this particular person...what you are
suggesting isn't the issue. This particular person has posted on
-devel-list...about f8 issues... more than six months ago. In a thread
I was active and civil in no less!

So no, there's no maybe about it, in this particular case this person
should have a working understanding of how updates have been going
out.

-jef"poster appears in my -devel-list cache on 8/3/07 and in my
fedora-list cache as early as 7/1/05"spaleta

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Old 05-11-2008, 01:28 AM
"Mark Bidewell"
 
Default Xorg 1.5 missed the train?

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 10 May 2008 13:23:59 -0800

> "Jeff Spaleta" <jspaleta@gmail.com> wrote:

>

>> 2008/5/10 Mark Bidewell <mark.bidewell@alumni.clemson.edu>:

>> > As a side question to this - Will fedora continue to push xorg updates for

>> > F9 after release?

>>

>> I simply cannot fathom why this question even needs to be asked.

>

> Maybe, just maybe, the asker doesn't follow Fedora regularly. *Maybe

> they don't understand our update policies and infrastructures. *Maybe

> they're coming directly from a different operating system and this is

> their first exposure to Fedora and Linux.



In the particular case of this particular person...what you are

suggesting isn't the issue. This particular person has posted on

-devel-list...about f8 issues... more than six months ago. In a thread

I was active and civil in no less!



So no, there's no maybe about it, in this particular case this person

should have a working understanding of how updates have been going

out.



-jef"poster appears in my -devel-list cache on 8/3/07 and in my

fedora-list cache as early as 7/1/05"spaleta



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I apologize for any offense.* I had not followed the Xorg updates until now.*

Mark Bidewell

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Old 05-11-2008, 01:48 AM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Xorg 1.5 missed the train?

2008/5/10 Mark Bidewell <mark.bidewell@alumni.clemson.edu>:
> I apologize for any offense. I had not followed the Xorg updates until
> now.


No offense taken, more like low blood sugar on my part. Josh sort of
has a point, i have to be reminded to watch my tone sometimes,
especially just before a meal. But the question did catch be off
guard, because so far I haven't seen suggestion that we've failed to
meet expectations with Xorg updates...once we split the monolithic
package into seperate drivers and libraries.


-jef"mental note...eat lunch/dinner before posting"spaleta

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Old 05-11-2008, 07:38 AM
Behdad Esfahbod
 
Default Xorg 1.5 missed the train?

On Sat, 2008-05-10 at 22:32 +0300, George Billios wrote:
>
> What went wrong here ? Even Adam Jackson's move to become the release
> manager of Xorg didn't make it possible to release 1.5 faster - and
> possible "buggier"!

Release numbers are for the ignorant. Upstream maintainer and people
closely following development think of a module as a list of new
features and current bugs, shrinking and growing by time. If Adam
thinks it's fine to include a prerelease of xorg in Fedora, then, well,
it's fine.

Just because we called it cairo 1.6.0 didn't make it any better than
1.5.20. In fact it was worse. We had to release 1.6.2 the day after to
fix a bad bug introduced in 1.6.0, and yes, had to release 1.6.4 on the
same day, to fix a really bad bug introduced in 1.6.2. 1.5.20 on the
other hand, was in release-candidate state for a week with no major
issues reported...

behdad

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Old 05-11-2008, 07:43 AM
George Billios
 
Default Xorg 1.5 missed the train?

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Xorg 1.5 missed the train?
From: Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list@redhat.com>
Date: Sun 11 May 2008 12:01:23 AM EEST


On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 12:53 PM, George Billios <gbillios@gmail.com> wrote:

True, I don't know and monitor every bug that has been reported in fedora
bugzilla or upstream but taking into account that Xorg 7.4 doesn't even have
a RC and that 2 months ago everything was supposed to be going as scheduled,
I had to ask. Besides searching the mail list I found zero issues about this
in the last 2 months!


So the fact that there are no communicated issues makes you think
there's a problem? Isn't that sort of backwards?


This isn't exactly what I'm writing here, better read again.


And shouldn't be
asking specifically on the upstream lists what the current roadmap for
them looks like?


I'm talking about the fedora release decisions which belongs to this
list not to the Xorg list. Again you don't read!



The Fedora distribution release schedule has been
clearly communicated, even the slips have been. If the upstream
process is opaque, then perhaps you should go stomping around on the
upstream list asking for some clarity on where their release plans
stand. Even if ajax is wearing multiple hats... communications about
Xorg's 7.4 release schedule should be done in the Xorg communication
channels so everyone who is waiting for it can find the information.
Having this discussion here, is just going to make it more difficult
for the other distributors to find.



Jeff, better cool off, eat something, get some sleep and come back later
with less attitude.





-jef



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