> I do the best I can but I'm not a superhero.

As a superhero, you shouldn't lie :-)!

Matěj

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The only problem being that this release is incompatible with current
nvidia drivers. Granted, I'm aware of the Fedora position regarding
non-OSS, but this Xorg issue has completely destroyed many user's
confidence in the dev team.

Most users could care less about supposed 'valid' reasons - that fact
is: No 3D acceleration == No F9 adoption (or worse, an eroding user
base). Lets not play this game with F10.

- Jason

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Jason Tang wrote:

The only problem being that this release is incompatible with current
nvidia drivers. Granted, I'm aware of the Fedora position regarding
non-OSS, but this Xorg issue has completely destroyed many user's
confidence in the dev team.

Most users could care less about supposed 'valid' reasons - that fact
is: No 3D acceleration == No F9 adoption (or worse, an eroding user
base). Lets not play this game with F10.


This is no game. Whenever Xorg ABI or kernel interface changes,
proprietary drivers play catch-up.


Rahul

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On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 05:23:47PM -0400, Jason Tang wrote:
> The only problem being that this release is incompatible with current
> nvidia drivers. Granted, I'm aware of the Fedora position regarding
> non-OSS, but this Xorg issue has completely destroyed many user's
> confidence in the dev team.
>
> Most users could care less about supposed 'valid' reasons - that fact
> is: No 3D acceleration == No F9 adoption (or worse, an eroding user
> base). Lets not play this game with F10.

Well I'm an Intel & Radeon user and Xorg in F9 is dramatically better
better for all my machines. So, yes, if new code improves life for the
open source drivers, lets do this again & again in future releaes. I don't
want my desktop experiance held hostage by one company with binary drivers.
I chose hardware which is supportable so I can get the best & latest open
source has to offer.

Dan.
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On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Jason Tang <jtang@magma.ca> wrote:
> The only problem being that this release is incompatible with current
> nvidia drivers. Granted, I'm aware of the Fedora position regarding
> non-OSS, but this Xorg issue has completely destroyed many user's
> confidence in the dev team.

This would have happened even if Xorg's release was on time and we
were shipping a blessed xorg server 1.5. The internal changes in
the xserver which break nvidia's drivers would still be there... and
Nvidia would still wait for a distribution to ship with those changes
before releasing a driver. Those of us who have run versions of Fedora
from FC1 onward have seen this happen before. And it will happen
again. The only reason why we didnt see it recently is because X has
been somewhat stagnant. The fact that we are releasing 1.4.99 instead
of 1.5 isn't the reason why this is happening. Nvidia will always
lag when an Xorg codebase change requires drivers to be updated. The
changes that were incompatible with nvidia have been in the Xorg that
Fedora 9 is shipping for months now. I'm sure Nvidia is aware of them.

>
> Most users could care less about supposed 'valid' reasons - that fact
> is: No 3D acceleration == No F9 adoption (or worse, an eroding user
> base). Lets not play this game with F10.

While this is certainly not ideal.. close source drivers will never be
ideal...you need to take a long view with regard to Nvidia. Xorg is
free to make changes, Fedora will adopt those changes. When the
Xserver has internal changes which break drivers...nvidia's drivers
availability will lag. This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact
that xserver 1.5 isn't officially released. Nvidia could have chosen
to release beta drivers to users over a month ago built against
xserver 1.4.99...which would have continued to work with xserver 1.5
on release.

Those of us who have followed Fedora from FC1 or earlier from the RHL
era, know how this works. When Fedora includes a version of X makes an
internal change which is incompatible, nvidia lags with the release of
new drivers by at least two weeks. There is a track record here.

-jef

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On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 2:30 PM, Daniel P. Berrange <berrange@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 05:23:47PM -0400, Jason Tang wrote:
>> The only problem being that this release is incompatible with current
>> nvidia drivers. Granted, I'm aware of the Fedora position regarding
>> non-OSS, but this Xorg issue has completely destroyed many user's
>> confidence in the dev team.
>>
>> Most users could care less about supposed 'valid' reasons - that fact
>> is: No 3D acceleration == No F9 adoption (or worse, an eroding user
>> base). Lets not play this game with F10.
>
> Well I'm an Intel & Radeon user and Xorg in F9 is dramatically better
> better for all my machines. So, yes, if new code improves life for the
> open source drivers, lets do this again & again in future releaes. I don't
> want my desktop experiance held hostage by one company with binary drivers.
> I chose hardware which is supportable so I can get the best & latest open
> source has to offer.

Why the H.E. double hockey sticks do people think proving
compatibility packages for nVidia users will somehow hold the desktop
hostage for everyone else?

I do not understand why ajax could not provide compatibility rpms for
nVidia users? Is he not paid by redhat? I mean just how difficult
can it be to provide F8 xorg rpms on F9 for nVidia users??

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On Tue, 2008-05-20 at 14:40 -0700, Christopher Stone wrote:
>
> Why the H.E. double hockey sticks do people think proving
> compatibility packages for nVidia users will somehow hold the desktop
> hostage for everyone else?
>
> I do not understand why ajax could not provide compatibility rpms for
> nVidia users? Is he not paid by redhat? I mean just how difficult
> can it be to provide F8 xorg rpms on F9 for nVidia users??

Two xservers is just insanity. Those on nvidia can choose between using
the nv driver in F9, or continuing to use F8 until Nvidia gets their act
together. The price you pay...

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On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Christopher Stone
<chris.stone@gmail.com> wrote:
> I do not understand why ajax could not provide compatibility rpms for
> nVidia users? Is he not paid by redhat? I mean just how difficult
> can it be to provide F8 xorg rpms on F9 for nVidia users??


Are you suggesting that we turn X into something run by the
alternatives system so we can parallel install different versions of
X? I'm pretty sure that's not a reasonable then to demand of ajax.

And if you aren't going to do it parallel installable..then what you
are talking about is a broken concept right out of the gate.

-jef

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On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 02:40:13PM -0700, Christopher Stone wrote:
> On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 2:30 PM, Daniel P. Berrange <berrange@redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 05:23:47PM -0400, Jason Tang wrote:
> >> The only problem being that this release is incompatible with current
> >> nvidia drivers. Granted, I'm aware of the Fedora position regarding
> >> non-OSS, but this Xorg issue has completely destroyed many user's
> >> confidence in the dev team.
> >>
> >> Most users could care less about supposed 'valid' reasons - that fact
> >> is: No 3D acceleration == No F9 adoption (or worse, an eroding user
> >> base). Lets not play this game with F10.
> >
> > Well I'm an Intel & Radeon user and Xorg in F9 is dramatically better
> > better for all my machines. So, yes, if new code improves life for the
> > open source drivers, lets do this again & again in future releaes. I don't
> > want my desktop experiance held hostage by one company with binary drivers.
> > I chose hardware which is supportable so I can get the best & latest open
> > source has to offer.
>
> Why the H.E. double hockey sticks do people think proving
> compatibility packages for nVidia users will somehow hold the desktop
> hostage for everyone else?
>
> I do not understand why ajax could not provide compatibility rpms for
> nVidia users? Is he not paid by redhat? I mean just how difficult
> can it be to provide F8 xorg rpms on F9 for nVidia users??

The compatability RPMs already exist - its called F8. It is completely
unsustainable to package 2 complete versions of the same package for
the same release.

Dan.
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2008/5/20 Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com>:
> On Tue, 2008-05-20 at 14:40 -0700, Christopher Stone wrote:
> Two xservers is just insanity. Those on nvidia can choose between using
> the nv driver in F9, or continuing to use F8 until Nvidia gets their act
> together. The price you pay...

Until nVidia gets their act together?? What the H.E. double hockey
sticks are you talking about? nVidia can't do anything until xorg's
ABI is *stable*. They cannot keep chasing a moving target. If xorg
declared today that the ABI will be stable then perhaps nVidia can get
working on new drivers. Perhaps xorg has already done this??

And I don't see why you can't have two different xorg packages. We
have other compat packages with gcc and libstdc++, etc...

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