Christopher Stone wrote:

2008/5/20 David Boles <dgboles@gmail.com>:

I need this too. So get busy and provide this please. ;-)


Sure, as soon as I get Ajax's paycheck I'll do his job for him....



As near as I can tell this is not his job.

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On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 5:38 PM, Christopher Stone
<chris.stone@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't give a hoot if the packages are supported or not, I just want
> an easy way to get my nVidia card working. All you people do is gripe
> and moan about how much work it would be and all this and that. Look,
> its just a matter of adding rpms to a repo, make an "unsupported" repo
> if you have to. The bottom line is you want to have as many people
> testing the OS as possible.

There's nothing stopping you or anyone else from creating an
unsupported repository containing packages which are not signed by the
fedora gpg key... if you have the resources to host it...then just do
it. In fact we've seen developers generate unsupported repositories in
the past...there was a repo for open wireless development kernels for
a time that were not supported that was very useful and yet very
unsupported by the Fedora project itself in any way whatsoever.

This is going to be my last post in response to you. I think your
comments concerning ajax in this post have crossed a line which should
not have been crossed and I believe that continuing to have a dialog
with you about anything at all...is only going to reinforce the idea
that your choices in how your shown displease with the situation is
something condonable.
Let me be clear, I think your choices to personally attack ajax are
reprehensible and quite distasteful to read. There's absolutely no
reason to attack ajax personally as you have done. If you want to
continue to be upset over the technical issues..fine be upset...but
keep it impersonal. Hint, bringing up someones parenting skills...is
personal. Even as a joke, its really not proper to do in what is
clearly a heated exchange. It certainly doesn't help keep emotions
low.

I would humbly suggest you take a moment and reread the full extent of
what your have written so far and reflect as to whether this is the
best way to persuade someone to do what you want, and how you'd
personally react to this sort of attempt to at a character
assassination if aimed in your direction.

I would also encourage others who are reading this thread to refrain
from responding to you, until you've made a sincere retraction and an
apology.

-jef"Knows from experience, that its just too easy to cross the line
in a heated exchange without intending to, and it's really important
to be able to take a step back. I could probably write a memior's
worth of prose just recounting when I crossed the line and had to
swallow some pride and make amends."spaleta

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On Tue, 20 May 2008 19:39:13 -0700
"Christopher Stone" <chris.stone@gmail.com> wrote:

> > You're asking for the wrong thing here. You want X to support optional
> > features of your hardware. The means you're proposing to accomplish this is
> > by adding an unmaintained software package into the distro until a
> > proprietary driver is fixed to support it. This doesn't strike me as a good
> > way for Fedora to proceed and you're unlikely to get any traction for
> > making a change there.
>
> Why can't they just be added to updates-testing and left there?
> Packages in this repo are not supported in the same sense as the ones
> in updates.

Says who? The entire purpose of updates-testing is to get _testing_ on
updates that will move to stable. If things are broken there,
maintainers go and fix it and resubmit fixed packages. When it's in
good shape, it gets pushed up to a stable release.

Go make your own repo.

josh

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On Tue, 20 May 2008 19:34:09 -0700
"Christopher Stone" <chris.stone@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2008/5/20 David Boles <dgboles@gmail.com>:
> > I need this too. So get busy and provide this please. ;-)
>
> Sure, as soon as I get Ajax's paycheck I'll do his job for him....

I'm pretty sure ajax's job description doesn't include: "Provide
solutions regardless of Fedora goals and guidelines. Jump when Chris
Stone says so."

You never answered my "What if Xorg was maintained by a community
volunteer" question.

And if everyone that worked on open source software required a paycheck
from someone explicitly for that, then it either wouldn't exist at all
or it would be in a much sadder state of affairs. If you want to pay
someone to do this work for you, feel free. It's not ajax's job.

josh

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Once upon a time, Christopher Stone <chris.stone@gmail.com> said:
> I don't give a hoot if the packages are supported or not, I just want
> an easy way to get my nVidia card working.

You already have several choices:

- continue to use F8 (which will continue to receive updates for about
another 6 months) until nVidia gets their act together

- use F9 and the Open Source nVidia drivers

- file away what has happened time and again with nVidia's binary
drivers and remember it next time you buy new hardware

> And obviously ajax does not care about 50% of Fedora's user base.

And extreme exageration lends so much to your arguments.

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Christopher Stone wrote:

2008/5/20 David Boles <dgboles@gmail.com>:

I need this too. So get busy and provide this please. ;-)


Sure, as soon as I get Ajax's paycheck I'll do his job for him....

That's very seldom how open source works. If you do a job well you get
recognized, hired, and paid. If you spend your time whining about why
other people aren't doing things the way you'd do them usually doesn't
get you anything.


And of course, that doesn't even begin to deal with the fact that
packaging old releases of xorg for Fedora *isn't* what ajax gets paid for.


-Toshio

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On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 7:48 PM, Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger@gmail.com> wrote:
> Christopher Stone wrote:
>>
>> 2008/5/20 David Boles <dgboles@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> I need this too. So get busy and provide this please. ;-)
>>
>> Sure, as soon as I get Ajax's paycheck I'll do his job for him....
>>
> That's very seldom how open source works. If you do a job well you get
> recognized, hired, and paid. If you spend your time whining about why other
> people aren't doing things the way you'd do them usually doesn't get you
> anything.
>
> And of course, that doesn't even begin to deal with the fact that packaging
> old releases of xorg for Fedora *isn't* what ajax gets paid for.

Yes, I know. I was being snide when I said this. I apologize.

But isn't packaging part of his responsibilities? It just seems to me
that an upgrade path for nVidia users could be provided without much
extra effort.

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Christopher Stone wrote:

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer@gmail.com> wrote:

No. The bottom line is that Fedora does not care about, cater to, or
promote binary drivers. Period.


Do they care about having a usable fully functional system for a
majority of their users?



You pulled that number out of your ass. And it's wrong. You have no
data to back that up, and what data does exist on smolts.org shows ATI
has a lead.


I *have* looked at the smolt stats, and they don't make any sense at
all. 1.6% and 1.9%, that doesn't make any sense, the smolt stats have
to be wrong. I'm sure the total number of nVidia and ATI fedora
desktop users is more than 4%.


Yes, that page is extremely strange if you are looking at the
classes/video. ATI and Nvidia are actually 83%+ of the identified
adapter vendors although shown as 1.9/1.6 respectively, but by devices
vmware and virtualbox virtual adapters come out on top.


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um let me be clear, the comment about Ajax raising his kids was not
meant as a personal attack. I'm sure he is a fine parent.

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 7:42 PM, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 5:38 PM, Christopher Stone
> <chris.stone@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't give a hoot if the packages are supported or not, I just want
>> an easy way to get my nVidia card working. All you people do is gripe
>> and moan about how much work it would be and all this and that. Look,
>> its just a matter of adding rpms to a repo, make an "unsupported" repo
>> if you have to. The bottom line is you want to have as many people
>> testing the OS as possible.
>
> There's nothing stopping you or anyone else from creating an
> unsupported repository containing packages which are not signed by the
> fedora gpg key... if you have the resources to host it...then just do
> it. In fact we've seen developers generate unsupported repositories in
> the past...there was a repo for open wireless development kernels for
> a time that were not supported that was very useful and yet very
> unsupported by the Fedora project itself in any way whatsoever.
>
> This is going to be my last post in response to you. I think your
> comments concerning ajax in this post have crossed a line which should
> not have been crossed and I believe that continuing to have a dialog
> with you about anything at all...is only going to reinforce the idea
> that your choices in how your shown displease with the situation is
> something condonable.
> Let me be clear, I think your choices to personally attack ajax are
> reprehensible and quite distasteful to read. There's absolutely no
> reason to attack ajax personally as you have done. If you want to
> continue to be upset over the technical issues..fine be upset...but
> keep it impersonal. Hint, bringing up someones parenting skills...is
> personal. Even as a joke, its really not proper to do in what is
> clearly a heated exchange. It certainly doesn't help keep emotions
> low.
>
> I would humbly suggest you take a moment and reread the full extent of
> what your have written so far and reflect as to whether this is the
> best way to persuade someone to do what you want, and how you'd
> personally react to this sort of attempt to at a character
> assassination if aimed in your direction.
>
> I would also encourage others who are reading this thread to refrain
> from responding to you, until you've made a sincere retraction and an
> apology.
>
> -jef"Knows from experience, that its just too easy to cross the line
> in a heated exchange without intending to, and it's really important
> to be able to take a step back. I could probably write a memior's
> worth of prose just recounting when I crossed the line and had to
> swallow some pride and make amends."spaleta
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

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On Tue, 20 May 2008 19:54:42 -0700
"Christopher Stone" <chris.stone@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 7:48 PM, Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Christopher Stone wrote:
> >>
> >> 2008/5/20 David Boles <dgboles@gmail.com>:
> >>>
> >>> I need this too. So get busy and provide this please. ;-)
> >>
> >> Sure, as soon as I get Ajax's paycheck I'll do his job for him....
> >>
> > That's very seldom how open source works. If you do a job well you get
> > recognized, hired, and paid. If you spend your time whining about why other
> > people aren't doing things the way you'd do them usually doesn't get you
> > anything.
> >
> > And of course, that doesn't even begin to deal with the fact that packaging
> > old releases of xorg for Fedora *isn't* what ajax gets paid for.
>
> Yes, I know. I was being snide when I said this. I apologize.
>
> But isn't packaging part of his responsibilities? It just seems to me

Yes. And he has done it with extreme proficiency. What you
are asking is not in the realm of simple "packaging" duties.

> that an upgrade path for nVidia users could be provided without much
> extra effort.

The nVidia thing comes up every release. Eventually I'm sure nVidia
will update their driver and then the upgrade path for users
choosing to use that driver will be an option. Waiting a few more weeks
for that to happen is not the end of the world.

josh

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