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Old 05-05-2008, 04:14 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default FESCo Proposal for blocking older version of autoconf & automake

Ralf Corsepius (rc040203@freenet.de) said:
> Or differently: Upstream projects which stick with these antiquated
> versions are as poorly maintained and dead as projects written in KnR or
> projects staying with gtk-1.

Oh, the irony.

Bill

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Old 05-05-2008, 04:14 PM
"Deji Akingunola"
 
Default FESCo Proposal for blocking older version of autoconf & automake

On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203@freenet.de> wrote:
>

> > PROPOSAL: I'd like to keep just the following packages and would like to
> > have release engineering to block the older packages from Rawhide:
> > autoconf-2.61-10.fc9.noarch.rpm
> > automake-1.10.1-2.noarch.rpm
> +1
>
> This step is way over due. It also will teach maintainers not run the
> autotools while building.
>
Not if I (qalculate-kde) cannot avoid it. cln was updated to a version
that radically changed the way it was detected, and configure.ac and
some .m4 have to be patched in qalculate to make it build with the
newer cln.

Deji

> Ralf
>
>
>
>
>
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Old 05-05-2008, 04:15 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default FESCo Proposal for blocking older version of autoconf & automake

Ralf Corsepius wrote:

On Mon, 2008-05-05 at 11:57 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:

On Mon, 2008-05-05 at 17:48 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:


This step is way over due. It also will teach maintainers not run the
autotools while building.
Thats your personal preference.


Your liberty to think this.


Otherwise, it would be useful to have packaging guidelines officially on
to the recommended method to deal with this.


Rahul

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Old 05-05-2008, 04:17 PM
Christopher Aillon
 
Default FESCo Proposal for blocking older version of autoconf & automake

On 05/05/2008 12:10 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

Or differently: Upstream projects which stick with these antiquated
versions are as poorly maintained and dead as projects written in KnR or
projects staying with gtk-1. - These projects have had many years to
update their code ... and failed. Now they've got to learn the hard way.


Great. I'm glad you want to provide a patch to Firefox. Please attach
it to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104642 at your
earliest convenience.


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Old 05-05-2008, 04:21 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default FESCo Proposal for blocking older version of autoconf & automake

On Mon, 2008-05-05 at 12:06 -0400, Christopher Aillon wrote:
> On 05/05/2008 11:48 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > This step is way over due. It also will teach maintainers not run the
> > autotools while building.
>
> It will also teach maintainers not to use Fedora for doing upstream work.

How comes you expect each and every tool in Fedora but the autotools to
be "current".

We have current compilers, current python, current perl, current ...

But ... you are expecting Fedora to ship and support utterly outdated
autotools?

You are measuring by double standards - If upstreams were writing proper
autotool files and where following upstream autotools as they apparently
are doing wrt. other tools, this issues would not exist.


Ralf


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Old 05-05-2008, 04:29 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default FESCo Proposal for blocking older version of autoconf & automake

> How comes you expect each and every tool in Fedora but the autotools to
> be "current".

That's it!

OK, by Fedora 10 we need to start removing all sorts of not 'current'
things that aren't up to modern standards.

First, toolkits!

We need to remove gtk1, qt3, and for pete's sake, Xaw and Xaw3d. All
are obsolete, and users and developers are best served by upgrading
to more recent toolkits such as Qt4 and GTK2.

The following 258 packages need ported by Fedora 10, or they will
be removed:

aasaver-0.3.2-3.fc9
agistudio-1.2.3-7.fc9
amarok-1.4.8-5.fc9
amarokFS-0.5-3.fc9
apollon-1.0.1-13.fc9
aqbanking-2.3.3-3.fc9
arts-1.5.9-2.fc9
avahi-0.6.22-10.fc9
basket-1.0.2-5.fc9
bibletime-1.6.5-4.fc9
bitmap-1.0.3-4.fc9
bluecurve-kde-theme-1.0.0-3.fc9
bouml-4.2-2.fc9
brltty-3.9-2.2.fc9
bubblemon-1.46-8.fc9
camstream-0.26.3-12.fc8
cernlib-2006-29.fc9
cernlib-g77-2006-29.fc9
CGAL-3.3.1-11.fc9
clips-6.24-25.fc9
compizconfig-backend-kconfig-0.7.2-1.fc9
crossfire-1.10.0-4.fc9
crossfire-client-1.10.0-4.fc9
crossvc-1.5.2-4.fc9
crystalspace-1.2-4.fc9
dbus-qt3-0.8-5.fc9
ddd-3.3.11-18.fc9
digikam-0.9.3-2.fc9
dillo-0.8.6-7.fc9
djvulibre-3.5.20-2.fc9
doxygen-1.5.5-3.fc9
dssi-0.9.1-14.fc9
exim-4.69-4.fc9
faad2-2.6.1-3.lvn9
filelight-1.0-12.fc9
foobillard-3.0a-6
freedroidrpg-0.10.3-2.fc9
fwbuilder-2.1.16-2.fc9
gambas2-2.5.0-1.fc9
gcin-1.3.9-2.fc9
gcombust-0.1.55-13
gcx-0.9.11-3.fc9
gdk-pixbuf-0.22.0-36.fc9
genchemlab-1.0-9.fc9
gentoo-0.11.56-6
glglobe-0.2-6.fc9
gnash-0.8.2-2.fc9
gnome-libs-1.4.2-8.fc9
gpicview-0.1.9-1.fc9
gpsd-2.37-2.fc9
graphviz-2.16.1-0.5.fc9
groff-1.18.1.4-14.fc9
gsview-4.8-2.lvn6
gtk+-1.2.10-61.fc9
gxine-0.5.11-17.fc9
HippoDraw-1.21.1-4.fc9
hydrogen-0.9.3-13.fc9
imlib-1.9.15-7.fc9
isdn4k-utils-3.2-58.fc9
jabbin-2.0-0.6.beta2a.fc9
k3b-1.0.4-6.fc9
k3b-extras-nonfree-1.0.4-2.lvn9
k9copy-1.2.2-1.lvn9
kadu-0.6.0-3.fc9
kaffeine-0.8.6-4.fc9
kasablanca-0.4.0.2-12.fc9
katapult-0.3.2.1-3.fc9
kbackup-0.5.3-4.fc9
kbibtex-0.2-14.fc9
kbilliards-0.8.7b-7.fc9
kbiof-0.3-3.fc9
kcemirror-0.1.5-4.fc9
kdbg-2.1.0-2.fc9
kdeaddons-3.5.9-1.fc9
kdebase3-3.5.9-10.fc9
kdebluetooth-1.0-0.41.beta8.fc9
kdegames3-3.5.9-1.fc9
kdelibs3-3.5.9-8.fc9
kdepim-3.5.9-9.fc9
kdesvn-0.14.1-4.fc9
kdetv-0.8.9-10.fc9
kdevelop-3.5.1-4.fc9
kdewebdev-3.5.9-3.fc9
kdiff3-0.9.92-13.fc9
kdirstat-2.5.3-8.fc9
kdissert-1.0.7-4.fc9
kdocker-1.3-11.fc9
kerry-0.2.1-7.fc9
kflickr-0.9.1-2.fc9
kftpgrabber-0.8.1-6.fc9
kickpim-0.5.3-14.fc9
kile-2.0-4.fc9
kinput2-v3.1-38.fc9
kio_p7zip-0.3.1-7.fc9
kiosktool-1.0-10.fc9
kio_sword-0.3-6.fc9
kipi-plugins-0.1.5-0.6.rc2.fc9
kita-0.177.3-12.fc9.2
klamav-0.42-3.fc9
kleansweep-0.2.9-7.fc9
klear-0.7.0-1.svn113.fc9
klibido-0.2.5-10.fc9
kmobiletools-0.4.3.3-4.fc9
kmplayer-0.10.0c-4.fc9
kmymoney2-0.8.9-1.fc9
knetstats-1.6.1-8.fc9
koffice-1.6.3-15.fc9
komparator-0.9-1.fc9
kompose-0.5.3-12.fc9
konversation-1.0.1-6.fc9
kooldock-0.4.6-4.fc9
kover-3-3
koverartist-0.5-11.fc9
kphotoalbum-3.1.1-1.fc9
kplayer-0.6.2-3.lvn8
kpolynome-0.1.2-12.fc9
kpowersave-0.7.3-3.fc9
krecipes-0.9.1-9.fc9
kreetingkard-0.7.1-2.fc9.2
krename-3.0.14-4.fc9
krusader-1.80.0-5.fc9
kscope-1.6.1-4.fc9
ksensors-0.7.3-16.fc9
kshutdown-1.0.1-2.fc9
ksirk-1.7-6.fc9
ksshaskpass-0.4-2.fc9
kst-1.5.0-3.fc9
ksynaptics-0.3.3-5.fc9
ktechlab-0.3.69-5.fc8
kyum-0.7.5-11.fc9
LabPlot-1.5.1.6-4.fc8
lame-3.97-6.lvn8
libglade-0.17-21.fc9
libkdcraw-0.1.3-2.fc9
libkexif-0.2.5-4.fc9
libkexiv2-0.1.6-4.fc9
libkipi-0.1.5-4.fc9
libopensync-plugin-kdepim-0.35-2.fc9
libquicktime-1.0.2-2.lvn9
libsvm-2.86-12.fc9
libsx-2.05-15.fc9
libXaw-1.0.4-2.fc9
licq-1.3.5-1.fc9
lineak-kdeplugins-0.9-4.fc9
linpsk-0.9-3.fc9
logjam-4.5.3-22.fc9
manedit-0.8.1-3.fc9
metamonitor-0.4.5-5.fc9
moto4lin-0.3-6.fc7
museek+-0.1.13-3.fc9
MyPasswordSafe-0.6.7-4.20061216.fc9
nas-1.9.1-4.fc9
ncl-5.0.0-11.fc9
ncview-1.92e-13.fc9
netgo-0.5-10.fc9
nethack-3.4.3-17.fc9
ngspice-17-14.fc9
normalize-0.7.7-2.lvn6
ogre-1.4.7-2.fc9
ois-1.0-4.fc9
oooqs2-1.0-3.fc6
openbox-3.4.6.1-1.fc9
OpenSceneGraph-2.2.0-5.fc9
oprofile-0.9.3-17.fc9
pdfedit-0.3.2-4.fc9
pic2aa-0.2.1-3.fc9
pikdev-0.9.2-6.fc9
piklab-0.15.0-1.fc9
pikloops-0.2.5-3.fc9
pinentry-0.7.4-5.fc9
plotutils-2.5-5.fc9
plt-scheme-372-1.fc9
purple-plugin_pack-2.3.0-1.fc9
putty-0.60-3.fc9
PyKDE-3.16.1-1.fc9
PyQt-3.17.4-4.fc9
qalculate-kde-0.9.6-5.fc9
qascade-0.1-10.fc9
qca-1.0-10.fc9
qcad-2.0.5.0-8.fc9
qca-tls-1.0-13.fc9
qcomicbook-0.4.0-2.fc9
qfaxreader-0.3.1-9.fc9.3
qgo-1.5.4r2-1.fc9
qiv-2.0-9.fc9
qps-1.9.19-0.2.b.fc7
qpxtool-0.6.1-9.fc9
qstars-0.4-6.fc9
qsynth-0.2.5-7.fc9
qt3-3.3.8b-12.fc9
qt-4.3.4-11.fc9
qtparted-0.4.5-18.fc9
qt-qsa-1.1.5-5.fc9
quadkonsole-2.0.2-3.fc9
qucs-0.0.14-1.fc9
qwtplot3d-0.2.7-6.fc9
rekall-2.4.6-4.fc9
rosegarden4-1.6.1-2.fc9
rsibreak-0.8.0-5.fc9
scigraphica-2.1.0-6.fc9
scim-bridge-0.4.15-5.fc9
scim-qtimm-0.9.4-10.fc9
scribus-1.3.4-5.fc9
showimg-0.9.5-16.fc9
siril-0.8-4.fc9
six-0.5.3-9.fc9
smart-0.52-54.fc9
smb4k-0.9.3-2.fc9
smpeg-0.4.4-11.lvn6
SoQt-1.4.1-9.fc9
soundtracker-0.6.8-2.fc6
spacechart-0.9.5-1.fc9
subcommander-1.2.2-12.fc9
synce-kde-0.9.1-3.fc9
t1lib-5.1.2-2.fc9
taskjuggler-2.4.0-7.fc9
taxipilot-0.9.2-6.fc9
tellico-1.3.1-1.fc9
tideEditor-1.4.1-2.fc9
transcode-1.0.5-2.lvn9
twinkle-1.2-2.fc9
uim-1.4.2-3.fc9
unixODBC-2.2.12-7.fc9
valknut-0.3.11-4.fc9
vtk-5.0.4-21.fc9
wlassistant-0.5.7-7.fc9
wordtrans-1.1-0.5.pre13.fc9
wpa_supplicant-0.6.3-5.fc9
x3270-3.3.6-5.fc9
xarchon-0.50-7.fc9
xawtv-3.95-8.fc9
xboard-4.2.7-17.fc9
xdrawchem-1.9.9-9.fc9
xfig-3.2.5-10.fc9
xkeycaps-2.46-7.fc9.3
xmms-1.2.10-38.fc9
xmms-acme-0.4.3-9
xmms-adplug-1.2-7.fc9
xmms-alarm-0.3.7-7.fc9
xmms-flac-1.1.4-4.fc9
xmms-lirc-1.4-12
xmms-mp3-1.2.10-5.lvn6
xmms-musepack-1.2-6.fc9
xmms-sid-0.8.0-0.5.beta17.fc9
xmms-speex-0.9.1-13
xorg-x11-apps-7.3-3.fc9
xorg-x11-resutils-7.1-5.fc9
xorg-x11-server-1.4.99.901-26.20080415.fc9
xorg-x11-server-utils-7.3-3.fc9
xorg-x11-utils-7.3-3.fc9
xorg-x11-xdm-1.1.6-3.fc9
xorg-x11-xkb-utils-7.2-4.fc9
xorg-x11-xsm-1.0.2-7.fc9
xosd-2.2.14-11.fc9
xterm-234-1.fc9
xtide-2.10-2.fc9
xvattr-1.3-15
yoltia-0.22.1-2.fc9

Next step, languages. (That can follow in a different mail.)
After all, who needs old stuff like tcl, fortran, or Ada when we have
python, ruby, and C?

Bill

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Old 05-05-2008, 04:32 PM
"Daniel P. Berrange"
 
Default FESCo Proposal for blocking older version of autoconf & automake

On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 12:29:19PM -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> > How comes you expect each and every tool in Fedora but the autotools to
> > be "current".
>

> Next step, languages. (That can follow in a different mail.)
> After all, who needs old stuff like tcl, fortran, or Ada when we have
> python, ruby, and C?

Nah, don't even need those - Perl6 ought to be enough for anyone

Dan.
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Old 05-05-2008, 04:33 PM
Christopher Aillon
 
Default FESCo Proposal for blocking older version of autoconf & automake

On 05/05/2008 12:21 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

On Mon, 2008-05-05 at 12:06 -0400, Christopher Aillon wrote:

On 05/05/2008 11:48 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

This step is way over due. It also will teach maintainers not run the
autotools while building.

It will also teach maintainers not to use Fedora for doing upstream work.


How comes you expect each and every tool in Fedora but the autotools to
be "current".

We have current compilers, current python, current perl, current ...


New compilers affects what's in the package. This affects users.
New python affects the behavior of the package. This affects users.
New perl affects the behavior of the package. This affects users.

New autotools affects next to nothing. Only what configure.in and
Makefile.in look like. This has zero impact for users.



But ... you are expecting Fedora to ship and support utterly outdated
autotools?


I personally don't care what shell scripts are shipped. That's all they
are, shell scripts. They don't ever need to be rebuilt, just be there
because they are compat packages. Upstreams expect them to be there,
and that's reason enough why I think we should continue to ship them.



You are measuring by double standards - If upstreams were writing proper
autotool files and where following upstream autotools as they apparently
are doing wrt. other tools, this issues would not exist.


Or if autotools maintainers would stop changing the interface so
freaking often, this wouldn't be a problem either....


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Old 05-05-2008, 04:39 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default FESCo Proposal for blocking older version of autoconf & automake

On Mon, 2008-05-05 at 12:29 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> > How comes you expect each and every tool in Fedora but the autotools to
> > be "current".
>
> That's it!
>
> OK, by Fedora 10 we need to start removing all sorts of not 'current'
> things that aren't up to modern standards.
>
> First, toolkits!
>
> We need to remove gtk1, qt3, and for pete's sake, Xaw and Xaw3d. All
> are obsolete, and users and developers are best served by upgrading
> to more recent toolkits such as Qt4 and GTK2.
>
> The following 258 packages need ported by Fedora 10, or they will
> be removed:

I know you know, you are being ridiculous.

BTW: I want to see gcc-4.2.x added to FC9 because gcc-4.3.0 breaks
certain packages I am using and I do not want to change the code it
breaks (in autoconf term: I need a bugwise compatible toolset).

Unlike autoconf-2.13, gcc-4.2.x has an active upstream.

Ralf



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Old 05-05-2008, 04:49 PM
David Lutterkort
 
Default FESCo Proposal for blocking older version of autoconf & automake

On Mon, 2008-05-05 at 17:32 +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> Nah, don't even need those - Perl6 ought to be enough for anyone

Sounds like we're skipping F10, and continue the regularly scheduled
releases with F12 or so

David


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