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-   -   Localisation needs to be improved (http://www.linux-archive.org/fedora-development/81843-localisation-needs-improved.html)

Jeroen van Meeuwen 05-04-2008 07:34 PM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
Let's make this into a Fedora 10 Proposed Feature:

- an interface for system administrators to set the default language,
like s-c-language does now, but extend it to tweak `locale`.


- an interface for users to tweak they're own little private `locale`.

Both could use the same interface, integrate with PolicyKit, and adjust
settings in a location that's dependent on a user click or privilege scheme.


These would not be included in anaconda / firstboot at first, but may
end up there depending on how desirable it is to obfuscate those.


How does this sound? Any current s-c-language developers want to shed
some light on this (package owner in CC:)?


Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

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Linus Walleij 05-04-2008 10:05 PM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
sn 2008-05-04 klockan 10:18 +1000 skrev Rodd Clarkson:

> Regardless, there has to be plenty of people who live somewhere, but use
> a different language or the likes for some reason.

Thats bug 432887 right?
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=432887

Linus

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Rodd Clarkson 05-05-2008 04:42 AM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
On Mon, 2008-05-05 at 00:05 +0200, Linus Walleij wrote:
> sn 2008-05-04 klockan 10:18 +1000 skrev Rodd Clarkson:
>
> > Regardless, there has to be plenty of people who live somewhere, but use
> > a different language or the likes for some reason.
>
> Thats bug 432887 right?
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=432887

Yes.


R.
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It's much better on my side"

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Jens Petersen 05-06-2008 08:31 AM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
Jeroen van Meeuwen さんは書きました:

Let's make this into a Fedora 10 Proposed Feature:

- an interface for system administrators to set the default language,
like s-c-language does now, but extend it to tweak `locale`.


- an interface for users to tweak they're own little private `locale`.


Sounds like a good idea, I agree.

Jens

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Jens Petersen 05-06-2008 08:31 AM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
Rodd Clarkson さんは書きました:


On Sun, 2008-05-04 at 03:48 +0300, Pavel Shevchuk wrote:

I don't see any Australia-specific options here. You SHOULD NOT get
australian currency or paper format with such locale.

If i understand you correctly, you should set everything to
en_AU.UTF-8, then override LC_MESSAGES with en_US.UTF-8. It will set
paper and currency to Australian, but leave GUI American english


Hmm, if I run "LANG=en_AU.UTF-8 gedit" and look at preferences I see
"Fonts and Colors" not "Fonts and Colours" (like for en_GB)?



BUT, I the humble end user shouldn't have to know any of this or do
anything to make it so (rather than feed the installer some appropriate
information).


Well the timezone approach sounds nice but is probably not practical as
others have pointed out.

I think a simple solution for now would be to allow choosing "English
(country)" as the install language. At least until we work out a better
approach in the longer term.


I agree it would be nice to be able to configure LC_PAPER system wide or
for users. system-config-language would be a natural place to do that
currently, but a desktop interface would be good too.


Jens

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Jeroen van Meeuwen 05-06-2008 10:18 AM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
Jens Petersen wrote:

Jeroen van Meeuwen ã?•ã‚“ã?¯æ›¸ã??ã?¾ã?—ã?Ÿ:

Let's make this into a Fedora 10 Proposed Feature:

- an interface for system administrators to set the default language,
like s-c-language does now, but extend it to tweak `locale`.


- an interface for users to tweak they're own little private `locale`.


Sounds like a good idea, I agree.



*doing*

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/LocalePreferences

Enlist and add your comments, ideas, proposals and changes!

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

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Ola Thoresen 05-06-2008 12:01 PM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
> Jens Petersen wrote:
>> Jeroen van Meeuwen ã?•ã‚“ã?¯æ›¸ã??ã?¾ã?—ã?Ÿ:
>>> Let's make this into a Fedora 10 Proposed Feature:
>>>
>>> - an interface for system administrators to set the default language,
>>> like s-c-language does now, but extend it to tweak `locale`.
>>>
>>> - an interface for users to tweak they're own little private `locale`.
>>
>> Sounds like a good idea, I agree.
>>
>
> *doing*
>
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/LocalePreferences
>
> Enlist and add your comments, ideas, proposals and changes!


I think the main issue is to separate "language" from "locale". I
believe this is the main thing for most of us.
So if LANG and LC_MESSAGES is set from the language-selection and the
rest of LC_* is set from the location/timezone-selection I think we have
a reasonable default.
This should be a quite simple fix, as both these dialogs are already in
firstboot or anaconda.

It will at least give me the right clock (24 hour) first day of week
(monday) and paper (A4) while still keeping all errors and other
messages in english.

Then we can think about some way the user can change the values of the
specific elements, if someone still wants another currency or paper size
than the default for their locale.


Rgds.

/Ola (T)

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Jeroen van Meeuwen 05-06-2008 01:07 PM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
Ola Thoresen wrote:

Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:

Jens Petersen wrote:

Jeroen van Meeuwen ã?•ã‚“ã?¯æ›¸ã??ã?¾ã?—ã?Ÿ:

Let's make this into a Fedora 10 Proposed Feature:

- an interface for system administrators to set the default language,
like s-c-language does now, but extend it to tweak `locale`.

- an interface for users to tweak they're own little private `locale`.

Sounds like a good idea, I agree.


*doing*

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/LocalePreferences

Enlist and add your comments, ideas, proposals and changes!



I think the main issue is to separate "language" from "locale". I
believe this is the main thing for most of us.
So if LANG and LC_MESSAGES is set from the language-selection and the
rest of LC_* is set from the location/timezone-selection I think we have
a reasonable default.
This should be a quite simple fix, as both these dialogs are already in
firstboot or anaconda.



Yes;

1) System (global) defaults

1a) Language selection now implies locale, and maybe it shouldn't
1b) Timezone selection does not impact locale, while maybe it should

2) End-User Preferences

==

1) makes for a good use-case to implement anything different from the
current situation; whether it goes into anaconda or firstboot or "System
> Administration" -I'm sorry I'm a GNOME user, rest assured it should
be available to _all_ desktop environments and the console. Setting
system locale defaults from the timezone selected in anaconda/firstboot
makes perfect sense. I'm thinking this may also imply some sort of
'locale --messages=nl_NL.utf8 --paper=de_DE.utf8' (or something similar)
in kickstart.


2) requires something _outside_ anaconda and firstboot, possibly in
"System > Preferences" (sorry for that, again).


I'll update the wiki feature page to reflect these things, soon.

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

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Matthias Clasen 05-06-2008 04:56 PM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
On Tue, 2008-05-06 at 12:18 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
> Jens Petersen wrote:
> > Jeroen van Meeuwen ã•ã‚“ã¯æ›¸ãã¾ã—ãŸ:
> >> Let's make this into a Fedora 10 Proposed Feature:
> >>
> >> - an interface for system administrators to set the default language,
> >> like s-c-language does now, but extend it to tweak `locale`.
> >>
> >> - an interface for users to tweak they're own little private `locale`.
> >
> > Sounds like a good idea, I agree.
> >
>
> *doing*
>
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/LocalePreferences
>
> Enlist and add your comments, ideas, proposals and changes!
>

I started doing so, but I think I'd rather send my comments here, since
a discussion is easier via mail.

1. '[...] will end up in all LC_* environment variables being set' - I
don't quite follow here. env | grep LC_ comes up empty for me, only LANG
is sent. Who is setting all the LC_ variables for you ?

2. 'Users should be able to adjust their LC_* preferences [...]' is far
to vague imo. What users can be expected to set, reasonably, is their
language and location. Anything beyond that, like picking a default
paper size or time format, seems to be much to specialized for a general
purpose capplet, and is much better done where it is needed (ie paper
size in the print dialog, time format in the clock).

3. Note that we are aiming more or less at obsoleting s-c-date with the
intlclock work.

4. There is some existing, unfinished code in gnome-control-center for a
'Locale' capplet, see
http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/gnome-control-center/trunk/capplets/localization/


Matthias

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Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams 05-06-2008 04:59 PM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
On Tue, 2008-05-06 at 18:31 +1000, Jens Petersen wrote:
> Hmm, if I run "LANG=en_AU.UTF-8 gedit" and look at preferences I see
> "Fonts and Colors" not "Fonts and Colours" (like for en_GB)?

gedit doesn't have l10n for en_AU.

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