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Old 05-04-2008, 03:01 PM
Nicolas Mailhot
 
Default Help a little, make Fedora 10 a lot better

Mission accomplished?
=====================

It's the half-year mark, a final package set is being spun, blocking
problems have been resolved, the sky is blue… People can now focus on
this version release parties right?

WRONG

It's time to think of the NEXT version release parties. And how to make
the next Fedora version rock so much the parties will be HUGE. In
particular, care of issues that will need a full release cycle to mature
before the next release.

We're not there (yet)
=====================

Such as… fonts. Fedora inherited from Red Hat Linux an impeccable
American server OS pedigree. Unfortunately it also inherited
its American server OS limits. Massive non-English Linux desktop
deployments often use Debian or Debian derivatives. Meanwhile we discuss
English locales support.

Why fonts?
==========

More than flash or mp3 support we need more fonts, so the text that
makes most of our UI renders fine. It does not matter how many cool
features the Desktop team adds in the next cycle — if the UI text
screams to the user “I hate you” he won't install better fonts manually.
He'll switch to a competitor that deploys Fedora-developed features with
nice fonts.

Why fonts? (really)
===================

We need more artsy fonts so the art team can produce all kinds of cool
promotional Fedora material (including release party flyers).

We need more international fonts so regions where the Fedora presence is
currently nil can join the partying.

We need more fonts so the work of all the non-server SIGs is properly
appreciated.

Over all, we need more fonts so users can customize their desktop to the
point they can't envision using something else than Fedora.

Why me?
=======

The situation got a little better during the Fedora 9 cycle. But we're
still badly lagging distributions that have been investing in good font
experience for a long time (Debian, Mandriva). And the Fedora 9 effort
was produced by few people, that can not scale indefinitely.

The Fedora font wishlist has 32 entries today. Not counting the public
font lists it references: only fonts someone explicitly requested.
That's more than 2/3 of the total of our currently packaged fonts.

The list is growing, not shrinking. Many entries have half a year
(before we didn't tack them).

Clearly a targeted effort by new packagers is required to fix the
situation by Fedora 10 time.

It's easy!
==========

Font packaging is not hard:
1. we've got good official streamlined packaging guidelines
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Fonts/Packaging
2. most font upstreams make few releases; you don't have to track them
closely

A font package is perfect for would-be packagers that need to to learn
the ropes on a simple package. A font package is perfect for experienced
packagers that do not have the time to take care of another time-waster.

Let's party!
============

So here's the deal:

A. We need 32 packagers to adopt a font in the SIG wishlist:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Fonts/Triaging/Pipeline#wishes
(Including fonts best packaged locally. It's a chicken-and-egg problem:
we won't get local packagers before Fedora is attractive enough for them
to join)

B. We need them to package their font by Fedora 10 alpha¹

C. *Then* we can have huge Fedora 10 parties

D. For Fedora 11, repeat with “getting better than the competition” as
objective



¹ So the result can be tested and the eventual buglets resolved
upstream and in fontconfig before the final release

--
Nicolas Mailhot
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Old 05-05-2008, 05:37 AM
Rodd Clarkson
 
Default Help a little, make Fedora 10 a lot better

> We're not there (yet)
> =====================
>
> Such as… fonts. Fedora inherited from Red Hat Linux an impeccable
> American server OS pedigree. Unfortunately it also inherited
> its American server OS limits. Massive non-English Linux desktop
> deployments often use Debian or Debian derivatives. Meanwhile we discuss
> English locales support.

Are you talking about the fact that I've raised issues with being stuck
with Letter paper because I use US english?

That might be my issue, but that isn't the problem as far as I see it.
This is as much a problem for anyone that wants to use some other
language than english, but lives in the US and is stuff with A4 instead
of letter.

We might be discussing locales support, but it's got nothing to do with
english. It's about the ability to use a language and live somewhere
and not have assumptions about the second because of the first.

R.
--
"It's a fine line between denial and faith.
It's much better on my side"

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Old 05-05-2008, 09:40 AM
"Pavel Shevchuk"
 
Default Help a little, make Fedora 10 a lot better

On 5/5/08, Rodd Clarkson <rodd@clarkson.id.au> wrote:
>
> > We're not there (yet)
> > =====================
> >
> > Such as… fonts. Fedora inherited from Red Hat Linux an impeccable
> > American server OS pedigree. Unfortunately it also inherited
> > its American server OS limits. Massive non-English Linux desktop
> > deployments often use Debian or Debian derivatives. Meanwhile we discuss
> > English locales support.
>
>
> Are you talking about the fact that I've raised issues with being stuck
> with Letter paper because I use US english?

Paper format is set by:

LC_PAPER="en_US.UTF-8"


> That might be my issue, but that isn't the problem as far as I see it.
> This is as much a problem for anyone that wants to use some other
> language than english, but lives in the US and is stuff with A4 instead
> of letter.
>
> We might be discussing locales support, but it's got nothing to do with
> english. It's about the ability to use a language and live somewhere
> and not have assumptions about the second because of the first.
>
> R.
> --
> "It's a fine line between denial and faith.
> It's much better on my side"
>
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>


--
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:04 PM
"Nicolas Mailhot"
 
Default Help a little, make Fedora 10 a lot better

Le Lun 5 mai 2008 07:37, Rodd Clarkson a crit :

> Are you talking about the fact that I've raised issues with being
> stuck with Letter paper because I use US english?
>
> That might be my issue, but that isn't the problem as far as I see it.
> This is as much a problem for anyone that wants to use some other
> language than english,

It may be...

> but lives in the US and is stuff with A4 instead of letter.

however I do not think the fact it was discussed for an English locale
is incidental. It is pretty symptomatic of our community bias.

--
Nicolas Mailhot

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Old 05-06-2008, 04:43 AM
Jan Knutar
 
Default Help a little, make Fedora 10 a lot better

Nicolas Mailhot wrote:


> Over all, we need more fonts so users can customize their desktop to the
> point they can't envision using something else than Fedora.

I would like Vista-style modal dialog accompanied with warning sounds and
grayscaling of the rest of the screen, telling me that

"Warning, you just upgraded package X through yum, and X wants to modify
your font settings slightly, additionally you're currently running KDE and
completing the upgrade of X will launch a gnome application which will
launch the gnome settings daemon, which will also slightly change your
current font hinting and antialising settings, and possibly also adjust
your DPI by one or two units. Are you sure you want to continue?"

There's nothing more unsettling than having something about the fonts change
slightly, it's the same font but something's not right, but you can't quite
tell what it is. It's blurrier/softer than before, or rougher / grottier /
blockier than before, the size might be just slightly different too. You
enter new data in openoffice calc, and rows mysteriously become one or two
pixels higher as you press enter, but yet you're typing with the same font
and size that the rest of the cells are, or atleast that's what ooo claims.
You're feeling discomfort and perhaps a bit nauseous at first, a sensation
somewhat similar to motion-sickness. Application after application succumb,
either immediately or the next time you run them. Even konsole and
gnome-terminal that usually are so benign and rarely try to stab you in the
eyes turn evil! But they're often easier to get back on your side, and if
all else fails you've still got xterm, hopefully. For the rest, you spend
hours trying one font after another (or in the case of firefox,
combinations of 5 fonts) in different sizes, but you just can't make it
look the way it looked before... Heck, by now even if you'd stumbled on to
the original settings, you've changed so much else that it's still not the
same.

I wonder if I'm the only one who's wrestled with this

(And in this typing moment I just managed to get kmail and knode to look
like they used to, but then xchat went bad, and I had already made it look
like it used to... Or maybe I didn't get it to look like it did, just close
enough, and I got used to that close-enough version, and now that it's
really back to normal i'm getting discomfort from the slight change again?)

Sorry for this long rant

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