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-   -   Localisation needs to be improved (http://www.linux-archive.org/fedora-development/81487-localisation-needs-improved.html)

Rodd Clarkson 05-04-2008 12:38 AM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
On Sun, 2008-05-04 at 03:23 +0300, Pavel Shevchuk wrote:
> Could you paste "locale" output?
>

[rodd@localhost ~]$ locale
LANG=en_US.utf8
LC_CTYPE="en_US.utf8"
LC_NUMERIC="en_US.utf8"
LC_TIME="en_US.utf8"
LC_COLLATE="en_US.utf8"
LC_MONETARY="en_US.utf8"
LC_MESSAGES="en_US.utf8"
LC_PAPER="en_US.utf8"
LC_NAME="en_US.utf8"
LC_ADDRESS="en_US.utf8"
LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.utf8"
LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.utf8"
LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.utf8"
LC_ALL=
[rodd@localhost ~]$

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"Pavel Shevchuk" 05-04-2008 12:48 AM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
I don't see any Australia-specific options here. You SHOULD NOT get
australian currency or paper format with such locale.

If i understand you correctly, you should set everything to
en_AU.UTF-8, then override LC_MESSAGES with en_US.UTF-8. It will set
paper and currency to Australian, but leave GUI American english


On 5/4/08, Rodd Clarkson <rodd@clarkson.id.au> wrote:
> On Sun, 2008-05-04 at 03:23 +0300, Pavel Shevchuk wrote:
> > Could you paste "locale" output?
> >
>
>
> [rodd@localhost ~]$ locale
> LANG=en_US.utf8
> LC_CTYPE="en_US.utf8"
> LC_NUMERIC="en_US.utf8"
> LC_TIME="en_US.utf8"
> LC_COLLATE="en_US.utf8"
> LC_MONETARY="en_US.utf8"
> LC_MESSAGES="en_US.utf8"
> LC_PAPER="en_US.utf8"
> LC_NAME="en_US.utf8"
> LC_ADDRESS="en_US.utf8"
> LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.utf8"
> LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.utf8"
> LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.utf8"
> LC_ALL=
> [rodd@localhost ~]$
>
>
> --
>
> "It's a fine line between denial and faith.
> It's much better on my side"
>
> --
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> fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>


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Rodd Clarkson 05-04-2008 12:59 AM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
On Sun, 2008-05-04 at 03:48 +0300, Pavel Shevchuk wrote:
> I don't see any Australia-specific options here. You SHOULD NOT get
> australian currency or paper format with such locale.
>
> If i understand you correctly, you should set everything to
> en_AU.UTF-8, then override LC_MESSAGES with en_US.UTF-8. It will set
> paper and currency to Australian, but leave GUI American english
>

Yes, my locale output should look as you suggest.

BUT, I the humble end user shouldn't have to know any of this or do
anything to make it so (rather than feed the installer some appropriate
information).

I didn't set the setting this way, anaconda did. And anaconda has made
all these assumptions because I picked a language to use on my system.
I also told anaconda I live in Australia, but seemingly that information
wasn't that interesting when making assumptions about where I live.


R.



>
> On 5/4/08, Rodd Clarkson <rodd@clarkson.id.au> wrote:
> > On Sun, 2008-05-04 at 03:23 +0300, Pavel Shevchuk wrote:
> > > Could you paste "locale" output?
> > >
> >
> >
> > [rodd@localhost ~]$ locale
> > LANG=en_US.utf8
> > LC_CTYPE="en_US.utf8"
> > LC_NUMERIC="en_US.utf8"
> > LC_TIME="en_US.utf8"
> > LC_COLLATE="en_US.utf8"
> > LC_MONETARY="en_US.utf8"
> > LC_MESSAGES="en_US.utf8"
> > LC_PAPER="en_US.utf8"
> > LC_NAME="en_US.utf8"
> > LC_ADDRESS="en_US.utf8"
> > LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.utf8"
> > LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.utf8"
> > LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.utf8"
> > LC_ALL=
> > [rodd@localhost ~]$
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > "It's a fine line between denial and faith.
> > It's much better on my side"
> >
> > --
> > fedora-devel-list mailing list
> > fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
> >
>
>
> --
> http://scwlab.com
>
--
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It's much better on my side"

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"Pavel Shevchuk" 05-04-2008 01:32 AM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
You chose Australia on timezone selection screen.

Anaconda can't handle such specific needs without making GUI
obfuscated, and it works OK for most users already.

Advanced users can customize locale manually. Casual users want less
buttons and get work done faster. I vote for leaving it as is.

On 5/4/08, Rodd Clarkson <rodd@clarkson.id.au> wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 2008-05-04 at 03:48 +0300, Pavel Shevchuk wrote:
> > I don't see any Australia-specific options here. You SHOULD NOT get
> > australian currency or paper format with such locale.
> >
> > If i understand you correctly, you should set everything to
> > en_AU.UTF-8, then override LC_MESSAGES with en_US.UTF-8. It will set
> > paper and currency to Australian, but leave GUI American english
> >
>
>
> Yes, my locale output should look as you suggest.
>
> BUT, I the humble end user shouldn't have to know any of this or do
> anything to make it so (rather than feed the installer some appropriate
> information).
>
> I didn't set the setting this way, anaconda did. And anaconda has made
> all these assumptions because I picked a language to use on my system.
> I also told anaconda I live in Australia, but seemingly that information
> wasn't that interesting when making assumptions about where I live.
>
>
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > On 5/4/08, Rodd Clarkson <rodd@clarkson.id.au> wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2008-05-04 at 03:23 +0300, Pavel Shevchuk wrote:
> > > > Could you paste "locale" output?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [rodd@localhost ~]$ locale
> > > LANG=en_US.utf8
> > > LC_CTYPE="en_US.utf8"
> > > LC_NUMERIC="en_US.utf8"
> > > LC_TIME="en_US.utf8"
> > > LC_COLLATE="en_US.utf8"
> > > LC_MONETARY="en_US.utf8"
> > > LC_MESSAGES="en_US.utf8"
> > > LC_PAPER="en_US.utf8"
> > > LC_NAME="en_US.utf8"
> > > LC_ADDRESS="en_US.utf8"
> > > LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.utf8"
> > > LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.utf8"
> > > LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.utf8"
> > > LC_ALL=
> > > [rodd@localhost ~]$
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > "It's a fine line between denial and faith.
> > > It's much better on my side"
> > >
> > > --
> > > fedora-devel-list mailing list
> > > fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
> > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://scwlab.com
> >
>
> --
>
> "It's a fine line between denial and faith.
> It's much better on my side"
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>


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Jeroen van Meeuwen 05-04-2008 02:18 AM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
Pavel Shevchuk wrote:

You chose Australia on timezone selection screen.

Anaconda can't handle such specific needs without making GUI
obfuscated, and it works OK for most users already.



True, anaconda may not be able to handle it without obfuscating the GUI,
and I don't think it's something that needs to be done during the
installation or even during firstboot.



Advanced users can customize locale manually. Casual users want less
buttons and get work done faster. I vote for leaving it as is.



Casual users might find themselves frustrated over not knowing how, and
hence not being able to configure these settings - adjusting things time
and time again.


How hard would it be to make a little System > Preferences GUI tool out
of this?


Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

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"Pavel Shevchuk" 05-04-2008 02:22 AM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
s-c-language could be obfuscated =P


On 5/4/08, Jeroen van Meeuwen <kanarip@kanarip.com> wrote:
> Pavel Shevchuk wrote:
>
> > You chose Australia on timezone selection screen.
> >
> > Anaconda can't handle such specific needs without making GUI
> > obfuscated, and it works OK for most users already.
> >
> >
>
> True, anaconda may not be able to handle it without obfuscating the GUI,
> and I don't think it's something that needs to be done during the
> installation or even during firstboot.
>
>
> > Advanced users can customize locale manually. Casual users want less
> > buttons and get work done faster. I vote for leaving it as is.
> >
> >
>
> Casual users might find themselves frustrated over not knowing how, and
> hence not being able to configure these settings - adjusting things time and
> time again.
>
> How hard would it be to make a little System > Preferences GUI tool out of
> this?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Jeroen van Meeuwen
> -kanarip
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>


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Jeroen van Meeuwen 05-04-2008 02:58 AM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
Pavel Shevchuk wrote:

s-c-language could be obfuscated =P



Well.. that is the system administration tool setting the default
language for the system; it is not a user-tool setting the defaults for
the user account. But... something like s-c-language in user-land, yeah.


Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

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Rodd Clarkson 05-04-2008 03:16 AM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
On Sun, 2008-05-04 at 04:18 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
> Pavel Shevchuk wrote:
> > You chose Australia on timezone selection screen.
> >
> > Anaconda can't handle such specific needs without making GUI
> > obfuscated, and it works OK for most users already.
> >

Oh great. X seems to work for most people, so let's just leave it at
that. It will make Ajax's work a lot easier. For that matter, the
kernel seems to work for most people so let's just leave it at that.
etc.

> True, anaconda may not be able to handle it without obfuscating the GUI,
> and I don't think it's something that needs to be done during the
> installation or even during firstboot.

Actually, while there needs to be tools to adjust it afterwards, this is
most definitely something anaconda should be getting right.

You're average (non-advanced) users they are highly unlikely to know
that this can be managed some other way and will most likely just curse
and groan their way through each change they have to make at the
applications level to get it right.

As an example, I have to change the paper settings in a number of places
in cups so that it knows I use A4 paper. Add to this that evince
doesn't honor this, so I have to tell it that I'm printing A4 otherwise
every thing is scaled down just a little. OOo also needs to be told
about my A4 habit because it doesn't seem to honor cup's settings
either. And that's just a start.

Temperatures set to Fahrenheit. Measurements in inches, feet and yards.

Getting this right at the install reaches deeply into the entire user
experience, and should be done right at the install. After all, once I
customize all these settings, a change to system-config-locale is
unlikely to see these settings changing accordingly.

> > Advanced users can customize locale manually. Casual users want less
> > buttons and get work done faster. I vote for leaving it as is.

I don't know what to say about this argument. You seem to be arguing
that it's okay that we get this wrong, because advanced users can work
around it.

Besides, while I'm not sure I'm an advanced user, I also don't want to
either have to redo this every six months (with each release of fedora)
or ignore something that's broken just because it can fix it easily and
ignore how much it might inconvenience other less advanced users.

I say it should be fixed.


R.
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Andrew Farris 05-04-2008 08:34 AM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:

Pavel Shevchuk wrote:

s-c-language could be obfuscated =P



Well.. that is the system administration tool setting the default
language for the system; it is not a user-tool setting the defaults for
the user account. But... something like s-c-language in user-land, yeah.


I have a feeling anyone who submits a package review for a spanky-new python gui
app called 'system-config-locale' will get a quiet golfclap, a reviewer, and
probably a couple helping co-maintainer-hands in a heartbeat.


Until then this discussion, once again as before, is probably wasted minutes and
bytes.


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nodata 05-04-2008 09:22 AM

Localisation needs to be improved
 
Am Sonntag, den 04.05.2008, 01:34 -0700 schrieb Andrew Farris:
> Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
> > Pavel Shevchuk wrote:
> >> s-c-language could be obfuscated =P
> >>
> >
> > Well.. that is the system administration tool setting the default
> > language for the system; it is not a user-tool setting the defaults for
> > the user account. But... something like s-c-language in user-land, yeah.
>
> I have a feeling anyone who submits a package review for a spanky-new python gui
> app called 'system-config-locale' will get a quiet golfclap, a reviewer, and
> probably a couple helping co-maintainer-hands in a heartbeat.

Again, s-c tools are for the whole system. I think you mean
gnome-properties-

>
> Until then this discussion, once again as before, is probably wasted minutes and
> bytes.
>
> --
> Andrew Farris <lordmorgul@gmail.com> www.lordmorgul.net
> gpg 0x8300BF29 fingerprint 071D FFE0 4CBC 13FC 7DEB 5BD5 5F89 8E1B 8300 BF29
>

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