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Old 04-30-2008, 11:11 AM
Kostas Georgiou
 
Default is xorg.conf still needed

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 09:58:10AM +0100, Ron Yorston wrote:

> "Jerry James" <loganjerry@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Please don't forget us folks who run Fedora on rack-mounted servers in
> >the back room. I've got a single monitor, mouse, and keyboard shared
> >via a KVM switch between several machines. The odds are high that
> >those I/O devices cannot be queried for their properties at X startup
> >time because the KVM switch is set to some other machine.
>
> +1
>
> I have a KVM switch between my firewall and desktop machines. While
> the desktop was booting up I often switched to the console of the
> firewall to do something else, thus making more effective use of my
> time. With recent versions of Fedora this results in the desktop not
> detecting the monitor and getting a stupid default resolution.

This also happens when the monitor is off, many users here used to
reboot their machine and turn the monitor off before leaving for the
weekend so they were really confused once they turned the monitor
back on to login a few days later.

Kostas

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Old 04-30-2008, 11:37 AM
Mike C
 
Default is xorg.conf still needed

Adam Tkac <atkac <at> redhat.com> writes:

> I think it is not good idea. Autoconfiguration is generally better than
> manual but in some cases autoconfiguration cannot help you. Examples:
>
> - your xyz driver is broken and you want use vesa temporarily
> - you want use some external module (like vnc module)
> - you are user who needs fine-grained configuration (autoconfiguration
> is good for masses but sometimes people needs more)
>
> Best should be use autoconfiguration as much as possible but preserve
> and create minimal xorg.conf.

I would like to be re-assured that the issues that Adam raises are
still possible, perhaps via a different config facility, if there were a fully
xorg.conf'less X in future. In particular I most definitely would be very
disadvantaged without the vnc module. Can anyone respond to say how
this module would be loaded when X started if it there is no xorg.conf?

Similarly how would the current touchpad parameter changes to customise
the touchpad be input without an xorg.conf?

I presume that these issues have been thought about even if there is no
complete answer at present? Some idea of what needs to be developed in
order to accommodate these reductions in capability must surely have
been thought through before the decision to develop X to the point of
not having xorg.conf for F10?

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Old 04-30-2008, 12:58 PM
Jeremy Katz
 
Default is xorg.conf still needed

On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 01:12 -0400, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote:
> Speaking about xorg.conf. It would be nice to discuss about tablet device
> support like Wacom model. So far I have to manually edit that file to fully
> enable feature of stylus. Maybe talking to upstream would help.

I have the start of some work to get this going, at least on the tablet
PCs. Should be able to translate to the stand-alone tablets as well,
though. I just ran out of time to finish it for F9

Jeremy

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Old 04-30-2008, 01:12 PM
Jeremy Katz
 
Default is xorg.conf still needed

On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 14:46 +0400, Dmitry Butskoy wrote:
> Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> > Le mardi 29 avril 2008 à 23:05 -0400, Jeremy Katz a écrit :
> >
> >> This is a very strong goal for Fedora 10, at least for me. There are a
> >> couple of outstanding things that are going to have to be taken care of:
> >> *) Getting the X keyboard layout set based on /etc/sysconfig/keyboard
> >>
> >
> > I hope this will be done by making the console use xkb layouts,
>
> Does it mean that we will have to have xkb things installed even on
> machines where X is not installed now?
> (servers etc.)

The layout data, yes. You wouldn't need the xkb tools (you'd need
console ones instead). But the layout data doesn't take any more space
than the kbd layout data does really

Jeremy

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Old 04-30-2008, 01:26 PM
"Nicolas Mailhot"
 
Default is xorg.conf still needed

Le Mer 30 avril 2008 12:46, Dmitry Butskoy a écrit :
> Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>> Le mardi 29 avril 2008 à 23:05 -0400, Jeremy Katz a écrit :

>>> *) Getting the X keyboard layout set based on
>>> /etc/sysconfig/keyboard
>>>
>>
>> I hope this will be done by making the console use xkb layouts,
>
> Does it mean that we will have to have xkb things installed even on
> machines where X is not installed now?
> (servers etc.)

That would mean you'd have the xkb layout definitions installed
instead of one set of layout definitions for the console (kbd) and a
different one for X (xkeyboard-config). Both being inconsistent with
each other and hell to maintain.

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Old 04-30-2008, 01:28 PM
Jeremy Katz
 
Default is xorg.conf still needed

On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 10:56 +0200, Adam Tkac wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:52:20PM +1000, Rodd Clarkson wrote:
> > I've been running my system for the past week without an xorg.conf file
> > and it seems to work well
> >
> > I'm pretty sure that from comments made either on this list or
> > fedora-test that we are moving in a direction where the norm will be
> > that no xorg.conf file is needed and therefor won't be created.
>
> I think it is not good idea. Autoconfiguration is generally better than
> manual but in some cases autoconfiguration cannot help you. Examples:
>
> - your xyz driver is broken and you want use vesa temporarily

Ultimately, we should be fixing these bugs. Not having a config file to
work around them. But at the same time, the idea is that you can do
things like this at the hal level with fdi files rather than xorg.conf

> - you want use some external module (like vnc module)

Not sure what the best answer for these are... I defer to ajax

> - you are user who needs fine-grained configuration (autoconfiguration
> is good for masses but sometimes people needs more)

But a lot of the configuration is *user* based -- not the system.

> Best should be use autoconfiguration as much as possible but preserve
> and create minimal xorg.conf.

How does an empty xorg.conf help anyone? There's nothing saying that if
you _create_ one it won't be followed, but in the general case, one
shouldn't be needed and we shouldn't be writing one out.

Jeremy

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Old 04-30-2008, 01:41 PM
Adam Jackson
 
Default is xorg.conf still needed

On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 12:52 +1000, Rodd Clarkson wrote:
> I've been running my system for the past week without an xorg.conf file
> and it seems to work well
>
> I'm pretty sure that from comments made either on this list or
> fedora-test that we are moving in a direction where the norm will be
> that no xorg.conf file is needed and therefor won't be created.
>
> I'm having discussions with someone about this at the moment and would
> appreciate some clarification on where things are head so that this can
> be addressed at their end.[1]
>
> [1] The nvidia service from livna tries to
> run /usr/sbin/nvidia-config-display which seems to require a xorg.conf
> file in place. It appears that either (a) livna will need to work
> around the absence of this file by creating one (how?), and eventually
> (b) that nvidia will need to rewrite their software to recognize that
> the file need not exist.

The driver selection heuristic is the open source native driver for the
hardware, if it exists, followed by vesa. Changing this (ie, to force
vesa, or to use a closed driver) requires writing a config file.

% system-config-display --noui --set-driver=nvidia

Will write a standard minimal config with the driver set to 'nvidia'.

- ajax

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Old 04-30-2008, 01:46 PM
Adam Jackson
 
Default is xorg.conf still needed

On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 01:12 -0400, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote:
> Speaking about xorg.conf. It would be nice to discuss about tablet device
> support like Wacom model. So far I have to manually edit that file to fully
> enable feature of stylus. Maybe talking to upstream would help.

There's two pieces here. One is just getting the driver loaded, which
we do in fact handle. If lshal shows your Wacom device, we'll load the
linuxwacom driver on it automagically.

The downside (and the other piece) is that we do so with absolutely none
of the mandatory options specified, which means the driver refuses to do
anything with the device. Some of this we could fold into the base
option set, but some of it really is user preference and needs to be
exposed in the UI rather than in xorg.conf. The goal is to have
properties on input devices by the next X server release (ie, 1.6),
which will work more or less like RANDR output properties, and will
allow you to configure things like stylus/eraser/cursor/pad on the fly.

- ajax

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Old 04-30-2008, 01:53 PM
Adam Jackson
 
Default is xorg.conf still needed

On Tue, 2008-04-29 at 21:31 -0600, Jerry James wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:05 PM, Jeremy Katz <katzj@redhat.com> wrote:
> > This is a very strong goal for Fedora 10, at least for me. There are a
> > couple of outstanding things that are going to have to be taken care of:
> > *) Getting the X keyboard layout set based on /etc/sysconfig/keyboard
> > *) Need to be able to pass arbitrary options for input devices (eg, all
> > the stuff needed for wacom config)
> > *) Profit :-)
>
> Please don't forget us folks who run Fedora on rack-mounted servers in
> the back room. I've got a single monitor, mouse, and keyboard shared
> via a KVM switch between several machines. The odds are high that
> those I/O devices cannot be queried for their properties at X startup
> time because the KVM switch is set to some other machine.

That's fine.

The way input works now is you _always_ have a virtual core pointer and
core keyboard. As we receive device presence events from hal, we load
drivers for each, and attach their event streams to the core devices.
So configuration happens at plug time, not server startup time.

There's a detail here for outputs, which is that we don't always do
sensible things if we try to start X with no monitor attached, and for
some KVMs it's tough to tell the difference between not attached and
merely not active. That's just a bug though.

- ajax

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Old 04-30-2008, 02:00 PM
Adam Jackson
 
Default is xorg.conf still needed

On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 09:28 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 10:56 +0200, Adam Tkac wrote:
> > I think it is not good idea. Autoconfiguration is generally better than
> > manual but in some cases autoconfiguration cannot help you. Examples:
> >
> > - your xyz driver is broken and you want use vesa temporarily
>
> Ultimately, we should be fixing these bugs. Not having a config file to
> work around them. But at the same time, the idea is that you can do
> things like this at the hal level with fdi files rather than xorg.conf

The answer here is that xorg.conf is allowed to be _very_ small. All
the pieces you don't fill in will be filled in from the default
configuration heuristic.

Ideally, though this doesn't work yet, you'd just do:

Section "Device"
Driver "vesa"
EndSection

and the rest would get filled in for you.

> > - you want use some external module (like vnc module)
>
> Not sure what the best answer for these are... I defer to ajax

You should be able to load the vnc module, while still preserving the
rest of the autoconfig logic, with a config file consisting of just:

Section "Module"
Load "vnc"
EndSection

This _should_ work today. Please let me know if it doesn't!

- ajax

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