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Old 04-27-2008, 06:43 AM
Matej Cepl
 
Default New vegastrike for F-10: 500MB !! ??

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:59:33 +0200, Hans de Goede scripst:
> However the 0.5.0 datafiles are 500 Mb b2zipped! So is this a problem?

My past lawyer's self rises up its ugly head again -- what kind of data
it is? Something generated (cannot we regenerate it on the users computer
from sources?), bitmaps, video?

And most importantly -- are you sure it is all 100% OK with regards to
copyrights?

Matěj

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Old 04-27-2008, 07:23 AM
"Nigel Jones"
 
Default New vegastrike for F-10: 500MB !! ??

I have no problem with it, BUT, (and I speak personally here), there are
some people that will not use it because it's just too big (500MB is
larger than some of the monthly data transfer caps in New Zealand
(200MB/mo), I personally, only have 700MB/day.

Also remember that even though it may produce a 500MB noarch rpm, it also
means quite likely a 500MB srpm making it 1 gig in total.

Another consideration would be the size of the community behind
vegastrike, if we have 100+ then thats great, if it's only 10 then I
become doubtful over it's usefulness in regards to resources. (Don't get
me wrong, just trying to put a slightly different perspective on it.)

Just my two cents,

Nigel

On Fri, April 25, 2008 6:59 pm, Hans de Goede wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'm planning on updating vegastrike to the new 0.5.0 upstream release for
> F-10
> and maybe later F-9 / F-8 too, but vegastrike has been dead for a while
> and now
> makes some huge changes, so better to keep the old trusted version for F-8
> /
> F-9 for a while.
>
> However the 0.5.0 datafiles are 500 Mb b2zipped! So is this a problem?
>
> Regards,
>
> Hans
>
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> fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>


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Old 04-27-2008, 08:24 AM
"David Nielsen"
 
Default New vegastrike for F-10: 500MB !! ??

2008/4/27 Nigel Jones <dev@nigelj.com>:

I have no problem with it, BUT, (and I speak personally here), there are

some people that will not use it because it's just too big (500MB is

larger than some of the monthly data transfer caps in New Zealand

(200MB/mo), I personally, only have 700MB/day.



Also remember that even though it may produce a 500MB noarch rpm, it also

means quite likely a 500MB srpm making it 1 gig in total.



Another consideration would be the size of the community behind

vegastrike, if we have 100+ then thats great, if it's only 10 then I

become doubtful over it's usefulness in regards to resources. *(Don't get

me wrong, just trying to put a slightly different perspective on it.)


Don't forget that Vegastrikes community has a strong potential to grow because we offer it and upstream will expect us to offer the lastest stable version. 0.5.0 represents a lot of work in the right direction for them and they are excited about their new features, let's not be buzzkills and carry older versions, be friends with upstream and give them a gateway to millions of Fedora users.If we treat them well they will be likely to recommend Fedora to their users and everybody wins. I, for one, have never played Vegastike but following this thread my attention has been drawn to it I would like to see what 0.5.0 has to offer.


- David

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Old 04-27-2008, 08:41 AM
Andrew Farris
 
Default New vegastrike for F-10: 500MB !! ??

David Nielsen wrote:

Don't forget that Vegastrikes community has a strong potential to grow
because we offer it and upstream will expect us to offer the lastest stable
version. 0.5.0 represents a lot of work in the right direction for them and
they are excited about their new features, let's not be buzzkills and carry
older versions, be friends with upstream and give them a gateway to millions
of Fedora users.If we treat them well they will be likely to recommend
Fedora to their users and everybody wins. I, for one, have never played
Vegastike but following this thread my attention has been drawn to it I
would like to see what 0.5.0 has to offer.


I've never played it either, but praise is definitely deserved for an open
source game shipping 500Mb of content (provided its actually all freely licensed
resources). That represents an enormous effort for that team.


--
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gpg 0x8300BF29 fingerprint 071D FFE0 4CBC 13FC 7DEB 5BD5 5F89 8E1B 8300 BF29

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Old 04-27-2008, 09:10 AM
Alan Cox
 
Default New vegastrike for F-10: 500MB !! ??

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 10:24:29AM +0200, David Nielsen wrote:
> they are excited about their new features, let's not be buzzkills and carry
> older versions, be friends with upstream and give them a gateway to millions
> of Fedora users.If we treat them well they will be likely to recommend
> Fedora to their users and everybody wins. I, for one, have never played
> Vegastike but following this thread my attention has been drawn to it I
> would like to see what 0.5.0 has to offer.

Multiple packages would be nice however, especially for content. There are
several reasons for that

1. So I can install the basic minimal set and play a quick "demo" game
and get told where to pull the rest

2. So bugs can be corrected in one piece at a time - 500MB redownloads
for a packing error missing a small file kind of sucks

3. yum will cache downloads so a break in downloading of a set of
smaller packages is preferable to one giant one (even if requires
still eventually sucks them all in)

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Old 04-27-2008, 10:21 AM
Callum Lerwick
 
Default New vegastrike for F-10: 500MB !! ??

On Sun, 2008-04-27 at 19:23 +1200, Nigel Jones wrote:
> I have no problem with it, BUT, (and I speak personally here), there are
> some people that will not use it because it's just too big (500MB is
> larger than some of the monthly data transfer caps in New Zealand
> (200MB/mo), I personally, only have 700MB/day.
>
> Also remember that even though it may produce a 500MB noarch rpm, it also
> means quite likely a 500MB srpm making it 1 gig in total.
>
> Another consideration would be the size of the community behind
> vegastrike, if we have 100+ then thats great, if it's only 10 then I
> become doubtful over it's usefulness in regards to resources. (Don't get
> me wrong, just trying to put a slightly different perspective on it.)

500mb may seem big compared to what's in Fedora so far, but from the
perspective of the modern video game industry, it's on the small side.

Ever used Steam? "Digital content delivery" is the future for Windows
users and console gamers, but us open source people have been doing it
for *decades*. We pioneered it. Lets not start taking steps backward.

My "steamapps" directory on my Wintendo is currently totaling 15gb.
That's 15gb of potentially downloadable content. The last MMORPGs I
played were Ashron's Call and Anarchy Online back around 2001, and we
had to put up with monthly 100-200mb+ updates even back then. How big
are WoW updates?

Hell, Fedora updates seem to average in the range of 100-200mb per
*week*. Now multiply that by the 6 fedora machines in my apartment, and
500mb starts to look small. Assuming vegastrike refrains from updating
content every week...
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Old 04-27-2008, 12:03 PM
Hans de Goede
 
Default New vegastrike for F-10: 500MB !! ??

Matej Cepl wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:59:33 +0200, Hans de Goede scripst:

However the 0.5.0 datafiles are 500 Mb b2zipped! So is this a problem?


My past lawyer's self rises up its ugly head again -- what kind of data
it is? Something generated (cannot we regenerate it on the users computer
from sources?), bitmaps, video?


And most importantly -- are you sure it is all 100% OK with regards to
copyrights?




Hmm,

I'm afraid you're right, that 500 Mb tarbal included the music now (it didn't
with the previous release), and the music has an interesting licensing scheme,
which I'll mail spot about. The other content is all GPL


The good news is that with the music removed, the rest is "only" 320 Mb, and
the music can and should be packaged separately if it can be packaged at all.


Regards,

Hans

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Old 04-27-2008, 07:57 PM
Hans Ulrich Niedermann
 
Default New vegastrike for F-10: 500MB !! ??

Jonathan Dieter wrote:


On the deltarpm side of things, I do want to point out that compressed
files don't delta well *at all*. The problem is that a small change in
a file will lead to large changes in the compressed file. This is
biggest single reason I've seen that deltarpms won't be created for a
certain package in the presto test repository.


Shouldn't "gzip --rsyncable" come in handy here?

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Old 04-27-2008, 08:21 PM
"Stephen John Smoogen"
 
Default New vegastrike for F-10: 500MB !! ??

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 1:23 AM, Nigel Jones <dev@nigelj.com> wrote:
> I have no problem with it, BUT, (and I speak personally here), there are
> some people that will not use it because it's just too big (500MB is
> larger than some of the monthly data transfer caps in New Zealand
> (200MB/mo), I personally, only have 700MB/day.
>

This sounds like a new yum plugin. "Cap my downloads to X/day" so that
packages that are larger than that cap get marked etc.


> Also remember that even though it may produce a 500MB noarch rpm, it also
> means quite likely a 500MB srpm making it 1 gig in total.
>
> Another consideration would be the size of the community behind
> vegastrike, if we have 100+ then thats great, if it's only 10 then I
> become doubtful over it's usefulness in regards to resources. (Don't get
> me wrong, just trying to put a slightly different perspective on it.)
>
> Just my two cents,
>
> Nigel
>
>
> On Fri, April 25, 2008 6:59 pm, Hans de Goede wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I'm planning on updating vegastrike to the new 0.5.0 upstream release for
> > F-10
> > and maybe later F-9 / F-8 too, but vegastrike has been dead for a while
> > and now
> > makes some huge changes, so better to keep the old trusted version for F-8
> > /
> > F-9 for a while.
> >
>
> > However the 0.5.0 datafiles are 500 Mb b2zipped! So is this a problem?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Hans
> >
> > --
>
>
> > fedora-devel-list mailing list
> > fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
> >
>
>
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> fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



--
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How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed
in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice"

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Old 04-28-2008, 07:22 AM
James Antill
 
Default New vegastrike for F-10: 500MB !! ??

On Sun, 2008-04-27 at 14:21 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 1:23 AM, Nigel Jones <dev@nigelj.com> wrote:
> > I have no problem with it, BUT, (and I speak personally here), there are
> > some people that will not use it because it's just too big (500MB is
> > larger than some of the monthly data transfer caps in New Zealand
> > (200MB/mo), I personally, only have 700MB/day.
> >
>
> This sounds like a new yum plugin. "Cap my downloads to X/day" so that
> packages that are larger than that cap get marked etc.

While that's appealing, it's _much_ harder to be 100% accurate than it
might appear. The problems include:

1. presto

2. User hitting Control-c in middle of download.

3. Metadata downloads.

4. Yum/urlgrabber re-downloading broken downloads.

...I'll probably have a go at being "good enough" anyway. Although yum
really needs info. from other layers and a couple of UI things already
have above related problems anyway, so fixing this layering problem
would solve a couple of things.

--
James Antill <james@fedoraproject.com>
Fedora

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