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Old 08-03-2012, 06:10 PM
Panu Matilainen
 
Default Changes to the Packaging Guidelines

On 08/03/2012 08:26 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:

On Fri, 03.08.12 14:44, Panu Matilainen (pmatilai@laiskiainen.org) wrote:


On 08/03/2012 02:02 PM, Kay Sievers wrote:

On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Peter Lemenkov <lemenkov@gmail.com> wrote:

2012/8/3 Lennart Poettering <mzerqung@0pointer.de>:

On Wed, 01.08.12 15:28, Tom Callaway (tcallawa@redhat.com) wrote:


A new section on Macros has been added to the Packaging Guidelines,
covering Packaging of Additional RPM Macros.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Packaging_of_Additional_RPM_M acros


What's the rationale behind having these in /etc? This is hardly user
configuration, and only ever used if people build their own RPMs. We
really should try harder not to clutter /etc with stuff that is not
configuration.

Why not have this somewhere below /usr?


Because rpm doesn't have a drop-in directory for macros anywhere in
/usr, nobody has asked for one before this, and while I agree on
"/etc admin purity" being a good thing generally, it has not been
(and still isn't) enough of a reason to make it worth the pain for
me to personally drive such a move.


OpenSUSE has this in /usr/lib/rpm/macros instead. Makes a lot of sense
to copy that scheme from them and making the delta between the distros
here a bit smaller.


Ehh? /usr/lib/rpm/macros is and has always been rpm's own "factory
default" configuration *file*. In Suse, Fedora and every rpm based
distro I know of. Suse patches the upstream config directly to suit
their purposes, in Fedora-land the distro defaults are set in
/usr/lib/rpm/redhat/macros, but that's also a just a file, not a
directory where you can drop in bits and pieces of extra macros from
different packages. Obviously Suse could've added a drop-in macro
directory of their own but looking at their factory rpm sources, I see
no evidence of that.



I mean, I think RPM should look in /etc and in /usr/lib. But the
Guidelines should recommend the latter and not the former.


Agree. We should install them into /usr/lib/rpm.


Exactly. Static stuff installed by packages should not land in /etc.
It's a pain on updates when it's marked as config, and stuff goes
wrong all the time, because things in /etc invite everybody to edit
it, and boom. We really should try hard to leave /etc to the admin,
and not the OS vendor.

And just in case that this will come up: all the bad prior art in /etc
should not be a reason to continue that road, it's not the right way,
and we can do better, and need to do better.


Well, adding support for something like /usr/lib/rpm/macros.d/ would
be essentially a one-liner patch. Dealing with the consequences of
moving things there is a whole lot more work, annoyance and
distro-version incompatibilities however.


Well, it would increase compatiblity as the other big RPM distro uses
/usr/lib/rpm/macros for this already.

And I am not proposing that we should really move all macros from one
dir to the other immeidately. Instead I just believe RPM should look in
both places and the guidelines should suggest /usr and deprecate /etc
for this. That should be easy to do, and the transition would be easy
and "soft".


And I'm not saying having a drop-in macro directory somewhere in
/usr/lib/rpm would be a bad idea, but

- it requires a change to rpm which is not there yet
- the guidelines have to work within the realm of what works *now*

- Panu -
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Old 08-03-2012, 07:37 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default Changes to the Packaging Guidelines

On Fri, 03.08.12 21:10, Panu Matilainen (pmatilai@laiskiainen.org) wrote:

> On 08/03/2012 08:26 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> >On Fri, 03.08.12 14:44, Panu Matilainen (pmatilai@laiskiainen.org) wrote:
> >
> >>On 08/03/2012 02:02 PM, Kay Sievers wrote:
> >>>On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Peter Lemenkov <lemenkov@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>2012/8/3 Lennart Poettering <mzerqung@0pointer.de>:
> >>>>>On Wed, 01.08.12 15:28, Tom Callaway (tcallawa@redhat.com) wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>A new section on Macros has been added to the Packaging Guidelines,
> >>>>>>covering Packaging of Additional RPM Macros.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Packaging_of_Additional_RPM_M acros
> >>>>>
> >>>>>What's the rationale behind having these in /etc? This is hardly user
> >>>>>configuration, and only ever used if people build their own RPMs. We
> >>>>>really should try harder not to clutter /etc with stuff that is not
> >>>>>configuration.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Why not have this somewhere below /usr?
> >>
> >>Because rpm doesn't have a drop-in directory for macros anywhere in
> >>/usr, nobody has asked for one before this, and while I agree on
> >>"/etc admin purity" being a good thing generally, it has not been
> >>(and still isn't) enough of a reason to make it worth the pain for
> >>me to personally drive such a move.
> >
> >OpenSUSE has this in /usr/lib/rpm/macros instead. Makes a lot of sense
> >to copy that scheme from them and making the delta between the distros
> >here a bit smaller.
>
> Ehh? /usr/lib/rpm/macros is and has always been rpm's own "factory
> default" configuration *file*. In Suse, Fedora and every rpm based
> distro I know of. Suse patches the upstream config directly to suit
> their purposes, in Fedora-land the distro defaults are set in
> /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/macros, but that's also a just a file, not a
> directory where you can drop in bits and pieces of extra macros from
> different packages. Obviously Suse could've added a drop-in macro
> directory of their own but looking at their factory rpm sources, I
> see no evidence of that.

Oops, sorry, I was misinformed on this one. Still believe it belongs in
/usr though.

Sory for the confusion.

Lennart

--
Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc.
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Old 08-08-2012, 12:23 PM
Vít Ondruch
 
Default Changes to the Packaging Guidelines

Dne 3.8.2012 21:37, Lennart Poettering napsal(a):

On Fri, 03.08.12 21:10, Panu Matilainen (pmatilai@laiskiainen.org) wrote:


On 08/03/2012 08:26 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:

On Fri, 03.08.12 14:44, Panu Matilainen (pmatilai@laiskiainen.org) wrote:


On 08/03/2012 02:02 PM, Kay Sievers wrote:

On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Peter Lemenkov <lemenkov@gmail.com> wrote:

2012/8/3 Lennart Poettering <mzerqung@0pointer.de>:

On Wed, 01.08.12 15:28, Tom Callaway (tcallawa@redhat.com) wrote:


A new section on Macros has been added to the Packaging Guidelines,
covering Packaging of Additional RPM Macros.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Packaging_of_Additional_RPM_M acros

What's the rationale behind having these in /etc? This is hardly user
configuration, and only ever used if people build their own RPMs. We
really should try harder not to clutter /etc with stuff that is not
configuration.

Why not have this somewhere below /usr?

Because rpm doesn't have a drop-in directory for macros anywhere in
/usr, nobody has asked for one before this, and while I agree on
"/etc admin purity" being a good thing generally, it has not been
(and still isn't) enough of a reason to make it worth the pain for
me to personally drive such a move.

OpenSUSE has this in /usr/lib/rpm/macros instead. Makes a lot of sense
to copy that scheme from them and making the delta between the distros
here a bit smaller.

Ehh? /usr/lib/rpm/macros is and has always been rpm's own "factory
default" configuration *file*. In Suse, Fedora and every rpm based
distro I know of. Suse patches the upstream config directly to suit
their purposes, in Fedora-land the distro defaults are set in
/usr/lib/rpm/redhat/macros, but that's also a just a file, not a
directory where you can drop in bits and pieces of extra macros from
different packages. Obviously Suse could've added a drop-in macro
directory of their own but looking at their factory rpm sources, I
see no evidence of that.

Oops, sorry, I was misinformed on this one. Still believe it belongs in
/usr though.

Sory for the confusion.

Lennart



I created a ticket: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=846679


Vit
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