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Old 10-09-2012, 07:14 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, 9 Oct 2012, Lennart Poettering wrote:

Rotation happens in-line, i.e. each time before we are about to write an
entry we check if rotation is necessary and execute it. This should make
things a lot more robust, as this fixes a common issue with syslog where
a lot of data generated in bursts could flood the fs until a much later
time-based rotation took place. This time window goes away with the journal.


How can you configure how much log data is kept and for how long?


Rotation is strictly bound to disk size and space. There's an upper
limit on how much journald will consume, and a lower limit on how much
journald will always leave free.



This must be changed. Many policies at IT departments
world wide have a date-based requirement, not a disk space size.


It is simply unacceptable.

-sv

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Old 10-09-2012, 07:19 PM
Matthew Miller
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 03:14:06PM -0400, Seth Vidal wrote:
> This must be changed. Many policies at IT departments world wide
> have a date-based requirement, not a disk space size.
> It is simply unacceptable.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=864629


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Old 10-09-2012, 07:29 PM
Reindl Harald
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

Am 09.10.2012 19:19, schrieb Lennart Poettering:
> On Tue, 09.10.12 15:19, Tom Hughes (tom@compton.nu) wrote:
>
>> On 09/10/12 15:04, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>>
>>> h) It's much shorter to type: "journalctl" than "less
>>> /var/log/messages". "journalctl -n" is shorter than "tail
>>> /var/log/messages". And "journalctl -f" is shorter than "tail -f
>>> /var/log/messages".
>>
>> While "less" helpfully wraps your log lines at the edge of your
>> terminal journalctl unhelpfully truncates them or, if -a is used,
>> makes you use left/right cursor to scroll back and forth in an
>> attempt to read the lines. Especially since it fully qualifies the
>> host name so the actual message has barely got started by column 80.
>
> On f18 we will not trucnate lines we pass to less.
>
> If you don't like the behaviour of less in regards of long lines, please
> file a bug to less.

why is "less" used at all instead of "more" which
supports scrolling down AND up as example?

for me it is STIL a bad idea paging as default
and force users to set shell-aliases

the unix-way to go is "whaterver | more"

truncating and paging as default is really bad behavior

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Old 10-09-2012, 07:47 PM
Till Maas
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 07:51:30PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:

> To summarize:
>
> Previously: /var/log/secure readable only for root, /var/log/messages
> readable for everybody and including data from everybody.

Currently (Fedora 17 and before) /var/log/message is only readably by
root.

Regards
Till
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:55 PM
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

> From: Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com>

> On 10/09/2012 05:55 AM, John.Florian@dart.biz
wrote:

> >> From: "Jhann B. Gumundsson" <johannbg@gmail.com>

> >

> >> I personally want to see the documentation releng/fesco has
about what

> >> the default minimal set, what the process is to have something

> >> include,excluded from it and why the packages that exist
in it are there

> >

> >> in the first place.

> >

> > I too would very much like to see this as almost all of the (hundreds,

> > soon to be thousands of) systems I manage start life as a minimal
install

> > and grow "just enough" to fit their role. *I take
"minimal" quite

> > literally in that I believe it should be the absolute minimum
to boot,

> > login and install more atop of that, but only as needed. *Anything
beyond

> > this is some "use case", but minimal is minimal.

> >

> > --

> > John Florian

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> And now we see why Anaconda did /not/ have a "minimal" option
for a

> while. *Minimal means different things.

>

> To some, it means an OS that boots, lets root log in, read man pages,


> use non-english languages, and add more packages with depsolving.
*To

> others it means an OS that boots and lets root login, and that's it.


> Others feel that minimal should be enough to give you a filesystem
and

> runtime you can chroot into (but no kernel/bootloader).



I stumbled onto the multiple meanings while writing
that message. *I had started to say that minimal should consist of
no more than grub, kernel, bash, login, yum and their deps, then thought
to myself, well of course I want init (systemd) and ... and ...



So maybe I should say that I think Fedora has always
had it just about right, IMHO. *A very small, but functional system
ready to grow and can do so with its own tools.





> Right now, "minimal" is defined in comps, as a set of packages.


> Installing this group will depsolve and add more of course, which
is

> controlled by the packages itself. *Anaconda will add a few more
things

> forcefully, such as a kernel and a bootloader and potential arch

> specific utilities, as well as authconfig and

> system-config-firewall-base in order to add the root user and configure


> the firewall.



Makes sense, but can someone please tell me what "comps"
stands for? *I mostly know what they're used for, but have never guessed
the acronym. *My best guess just came to me after years of pondering:
compilations? *Anyway, I feel rather stupid asking this Q, but hey
"there's no stupid Qs, right?" *;-)



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Old 10-09-2012, 08:06 PM
Matthew Miller
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 03:55:30PM -0400, John.Florian@dart.biz wrote:
> So maybe I should say that I think Fedora has always had it just about
> right, IMHO. A very small, but functional system ready to grow and can do
> so with its own tools.

Yeah, but there's _so much_ room to quibble over what "functional" means
there. For cloud JEOS images, I think we need less than that (because
extremely ridiculously minimal is what people are asking for).


> Makes sense, but can someone please tell me what "comps" stands for? I
> mostly know what they're used for, but have never guessed the acronym. My
> best guess just came to me after years of pondering: compilations? Anyway,
> I feel rather stupid asking this Q, but hey "there's no stupid Qs, right?"
> ;-)

Once upon a time, the installer presented you with a dialog with the title
"Components to install". (I believe this even *predates anaconda*.)

This is the list of those components. The "comps file".



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Old 10-09-2012, 08:20 PM
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

> From: Matthew Miller <mattdm@fedoraproject.org>

> On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 03:55:30PM -0400, John.Florian@dart.biz
wrote:

> > So maybe I should say that I think Fedora has always had it just
about

> > right, IMHO. *A very small, but functional system ready
to grow and can do

> > so with its own tools.

>

> Yeah, but there's _so much_ room to quibble over what "functional"
means

> there. For cloud JEOS images, I think we need less than that (because

> extremely ridiculously minimal is what people are asking for).



Agreed. *I think this also goes back to one of
the requests here asking for a definition of what "minimal" means.
*It also clearly shows the need for other "minimal-like"
installs.



> > Makes sense, but can someone please tell me what "comps"
stands for? *I

> > mostly know what they're used for, but have never guessed the
acronym. *My

> > best guess just came to me after years of pondering: compilations?
Anyway,

> > I feel rather stupid asking this Q, but hey "there's no
stupid Qs, right?"

> > *;-)

>

> Once upon a time, the installer presented you with a dialog with the
title

> "Components to install". (I believe this even *predates
anaconda*.)

>

> This is the list of those components. The "comps file".



Oh yes, of course! *I remember
the days ... having started with RHL 4.0. *Some acronyms are just
more obvious than others and comps.* is just about as cryptic as trans.*
(arbitrary, fictional example) so thank you for clearing that up.



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Old 10-09-2012, 08:44 PM
Dan Williams
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, 2012-10-09 at 21:29 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
> Am 09.10.2012 19:19, schrieb Lennart Poettering:
> > On Tue, 09.10.12 15:19, Tom Hughes (tom@compton.nu) wrote:
> >
> >> On 09/10/12 15:04, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> >>
> >>> h) It's much shorter to type: "journalctl" than "less
> >>> /var/log/messages". "journalctl -n" is shorter than "tail
> >>> /var/log/messages". And "journalctl -f" is shorter than "tail -f
> >>> /var/log/messages".
> >>
> >> While "less" helpfully wraps your log lines at the edge of your
> >> terminal journalctl unhelpfully truncates them or, if -a is used,
> >> makes you use left/right cursor to scroll back and forth in an
> >> attempt to read the lines. Especially since it fully qualifies the
> >> host name so the actual message has barely got started by column 80.
> >
> > On f18 we will not trucnate lines we pass to less.
> >
> > If you don't like the behaviour of less in regards of long lines, please
> > file a bug to less.
>
> why is "less" used at all instead of "more" which
> supports scrolling down AND up as example?

I think you have less and more reversed?

Dan

> for me it is STIL a bad idea paging as default
> and force users to set shell-aliases
>
> the unix-way to go is "whaterver | more"
>
> truncating and paging as default is really bad behavior
>


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Old 10-09-2012, 08:53 PM
Simo Sorce
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, 2012-10-09 at 20:47 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Tue, 09.10.12 13:40, Chris Adams (cmadams@hiwaay.net) wrote:
>
> > Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung@0pointer.de> said:
> > > Only users in the "adm" group can see system logs and logs of
> > > other users.
> >
> > Is this configurable (if so, how)? For example, all the "wheel is
> > special" behavior I am aware of is configurable (e.g. PAM config,
> > visudo).
>
> This is currently not configurable.

This is bad, I certainly do not want adm users to be able to
read /var/log/secure, passwords do accidentally end up there, only root
should be allowed to read that file.

And AFAIK only root can read /var/log/messages in fedora, so you are
*relaxing* access and that is something that should be carefully
reviewed.

What is the rationale for relaxing access ?
Who is normally added to the adm group ?

> > Also: what is the equivalent for logrotate in the systemd journal
> > case?
>
> Rotation happens in-line, i.e. each time before we are about to write an
> entry we check if rotation is necessary and execute it. This should make
> things a lot more robust, as this fixes a common issue with syslog where
> a lot of data generated in bursts could flood the fs until a much later
> time-based rotation took place. This time window goes away with the journal.

Lovely so now I have a perfect way to remove all traces of access all we
need is to cause a lot of logging to go through until it is merrily
deleted ?

This *must* be configurable, there are places where rotation is not
allowed at all and the system *must* crash and stop if logs can't be
written and preserved.

> > How can you configure how much log data is kept and for how long?
>
> Rotation is strictly bound to disk size and space. There's an upper
> limit on how much journald will consume, and a lower limit on how much
> journald will always leave free.
>
> See SystemMaxUse= resp. SystemKeepFree= in journald.conf(5).

You need to allow boundless configurations, see above.
Also rotating based on use is generally annoying to admins, as it makes
more difficult to predict where stuff will end up and what will
deterministically be in backups.

logrotate has time based policies for very good reasons.

Your policy may make sense on space-constrained configuration but in any
other system they make little sense, and log compression on rotation is
all you really need (lots of repetitions in the logs allow big gains
when compressing).

Simo.

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Old 10-09-2012, 08:57 PM
Chris Murphy
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Oct 9, 2012, at 11:20 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote:

> On Tue, 09.10.12 15:35, Bryn M. Reeves (bmr@redhat.com) wrote:
>> Setting PIPE or piping to a pager is even worse - the lines are
>> truncated at 77 chars regardless of the term width so for now I'm
>> running journalctl --no-pager -a | less to get wrapped lines in a
>> pager.
>
> Fixed in F18.


Not for me. I get one result for the first command, and 20+ for the second:

journalctl | grep btrfs
cat /var/log/messages | grep btrfs

systemd-194-1.fc18.x86_64

Chris Murphy
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