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Old 10-09-2012, 04:11 PM
Matthew Miller
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 03:38:42PM +0000, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> Probably changing this is not doable since you have multiple types
> of units that can have the same name foo.path foo.target foo.service
> foo.timer etc.

But can we tell which the user wants?

> As I have set from the get go it is best for administrator and users
> alike to forget all they know of the legacy sysv init stuff and
> approach systemd with a fresh mind and as a *new* technology

That's expensive.

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Old 10-09-2012, 04:12 PM
Matthew Miller
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 11:59:08AM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
> > In current versions .service is implied if no extension is provided:
> > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39386
> About time :-)

Awesome.

And I want to take a moment to thank everyone for listening to these
concerns. I'm optimistic that we can make this all work very nicely.

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Old 10-09-2012, 04:40 PM
Matthew Miller
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 04:12:48PM +0000, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> >>>alike to forget all they know of the legacy sysv init stuff and
> >>>approach systemd with a fresh mind and as a*new* technology
> >That's expensive.
> No more than for example someone study and learning "cloud"

Sure, a fine example. That's an tech-industry-wide disruptive shift.
Companies _are_ spending money on investing in it, because they expect to
get significant returns, savings, and a competitive advantage. Many of the
companies and products springing up around cloud are precisely focused on
minimizing transition pain. Why _wouldn't_ we do the same if we want to sell
people systemd and journald?

Or to put it another way, which of these cloud providers do you think will
win?

"Forget everything you know of your legacy stuff and approach our system
with a fresh mind as a new technology!"

or

"Bring your experience into the cloud. Take everything you know, and
shift it to a new, more efficient and cost-effective model with no
disruption to your existing operation!"

?

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Old 10-09-2012, 05:19 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, 09.10.12 15:19, Tom Hughes (tom@compton.nu) wrote:

> On 09/10/12 15:04, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>
> >h) It's much shorter to type: "journalctl" than "less
> > /var/log/messages". "journalctl -n" is shorter than "tail
> > /var/log/messages". And "journalctl -f" is shorter than "tail -f
> > /var/log/messages".
>
> While "less" helpfully wraps your log lines at the edge of your
> terminal journalctl unhelpfully truncates them or, if -a is used,
> makes you use left/right cursor to scroll back and forth in an
> attempt to read the lines. Especially since it fully qualifies the
> host name so the actual message has barely got started by column 80.

On f18 we will not trucnate lines we pass to less.

If you don't like the behaviour of less in regards of long lines, please
file a bug to less.

Lennart

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Old 10-09-2012, 05:20 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, 09.10.12 15:35, Bryn M. Reeves (bmr@redhat.com) wrote:

> On 10/09/2012 03:19 PM, Tom Hughes wrote:
> > While "less" helpfully wraps your log lines at the edge of your terminal
> > journalctl unhelpfully truncates them or, if -a is used, makes you use
> > left/right cursor to scroll back and forth in an attempt to read the
> > lines. Especially since it fully qualifies the host name so the actual
> > message has barely got started by column 80.
>
> Agreed: I find this irritating too (and the default SYSTEMD_PAGER _is_
> less so I'm not sure how it's being run).
>
> Setting PIPE or piping to a pager is even worse - the lines are
> truncated at 77 chars regardless of the term width so for now I'm
> running journalctl --no-pager -a | less to get wrapped lines in a
> pager.

Fixed in F18.

Lennart

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Old 10-09-2012, 05:27 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, 09.10.12 09:41, Chris Adams (cmadams@hiwaay.net) wrote:

> Once upon a time, Bryn M. Reeves <bmr@redhat.com> said:
> > Agreed: I find this irritating too (and the default SYSTEMD_PAGER _is_
> > less so I'm not sure how it's being run).
> >
> > Setting PIPE or piping to a pager is even worse - the lines are
> > truncated at 77 chars regardless of the term width so for now I'm
> > running journalctl --no-pager -a | less to get wrapped lines in a pager.
>
> Yeah, systemd's behavior of "magically" doing things based on tty or
> pipe is highly annoying. If I want paging, line wraps, or truncation, I
> have tools to do that. Having to constantly go back and add options
> (after stopping to look up said options) to get unfiltered output is
> frustrating.

Well, there are many people who love this and some who don't -- from
what I am hearing. I personally like it a lot, and believe this is
really helpful for improving usablity of the command line. Given this is
the way it is I prefer to stick with the current behaviour, as it is
impossible to make everybody happy.

Note that this is hardly an invention of systemd, but a basic trend that
got more exposure with git doing this, but reaches much further back, for
example "man" exposes pretty much the same behaviour.

That all said, the color and autopaging is disabled automatically if you
pipe the tools to something that is not a tty. You can also enable this
via command line args, and env vars. This is similar to man or git. If
you want this behaviour to be removed it's probably a good idea to
remove it from all tools in question including git and man, instead of
focussing just on systemd, which would be really inconsistent. My
recommendation would be to file a bug against FESCO for this, so that
man/git/systemd and everything else removes the dreaded
coloring/autopaging! But good luck with that.

Lennart

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Old 10-09-2012, 05:30 PM
Matthew Miller
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 05:19:48PM +0000, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> Out of which of the ca 500 linux distributions which contain wide
> variety of init system are they trying to minimize their transition
> from?

Okay. Sure, let's just pick two:

Fedora
RHEL



> This sample of your makes absolutely no sense to me and it's on your
> companies hand to educate your staff to keep them up2date.

Well, that's one way of looking at it. Or, my company could go with vendors
that minimize transition pain.


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Old 10-09-2012, 05:30 PM
"Richard W.M. Jones"
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 04:16:16PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Tue, 09.10.12 09:09, Chris Adams (cmadams@hiwaay.net) wrote:
>
> > Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung@0pointer.de> said:
> > > If people want some pixel-perfect copy of the traditional
> > > /var/log/messages, then they should just run "journalctl" without any
> > > args. It's much better than /var/log/messages:
> >
> > How do you read this log when the system is not running (e.g. mounting
> > filesystems of a drive on another system, running from a rescue image,
> > etc.)?
>
> journalctl -D <pathtothejournalfiles>

What is <pathtothejournalfiles> in an actual system?

Rich.

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Old 10-09-2012, 05:32 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, 09.10.12 15:45, Tom Hughes (tom@compton.nu) wrote:

> On 09/10/12 15:35, Bryn M. Reeves wrote:
> >On 10/09/2012 03:19 PM, Tom Hughes wrote:
> >
> >>More importantly though, what is the equivalent of "fgrep xxx
> >>/var/log/messages" which is certainly pretty much the most common thing
> >>I do on my logs... I can't see any sort of searching in journalctl?
> >
> >journalctl | fgrep?
> >
> >This one is pretty fine by me tbh.
>
> Sure, though having just tried that is took 33s to search about a
> months worth of logs instead of the 0.05s that greping the last
> months messages took ;-)

Ist this F18? We made some imprvoements there. 33s is way too long
indeed.

Note that journalctl used like this will probably always be a bit slower
than the pre-serialized form read directly from the fs (which
/var/log/messages is), since we crawl through a ton more metadata, and
do a number of conversions during presentation. But not by this margin.

Please file a bug (but only if this against current F18). Make sure to
base this on the same dataset though. Also, please mention whether this
is on SSD or on rotating media.

There are a number of low-hanging fruits how we can easily optimize this
still, especially for rotating media.

Alsonote that if you use the built-in filtering of journalctl things
should already look a lot better. ("journalctl
_SYSTEMD_UNIT=avahi-daemon.service" instead of "journalctl | grep
avahi-daemon" for example.)

Lennart

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Old 10-09-2012, 05:34 PM
drago01
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 7:30 PM, Richard W.M. Jones <rjones@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 04:16:16PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> On Tue, 09.10.12 09:09, Chris Adams (cmadams@hiwaay.net) wrote:
>>
>> > Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung@0pointer.de> said:
>> > > If people want some pixel-perfect copy of the traditional
>> > > /var/log/messages, then they should just run "journalctl" without any
>> > > args. It's much better than /var/log/messages:
>> >
>> > How do you read this log when the system is not running (e.g. mounting
>> > filesystems of a drive on another system, running from a rescue image,
>> > etc.)?
>>
>> journalctl -D <pathtothejournalfiles>
>
> What is <pathtothejournalfiles> in an actual system?

From the man page:

By default the journal stores log data in /run/log/journal/. Since
/run/ is volatile log data is lost at reboot. To make the data
persistent it is sufficient to create /var/log/journal/ where
systemd-journald will then store the data.
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