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Old 10-09-2012, 02:59 PM
Tom Hughes
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On 09/10/12 15:35, Bryn M. Reeves wrote:


Agreed: I find this irritating too (and the default SYSTEMD_PAGER _is_
less so I'm not sure how it's being run).


I think I understand this now - because I am sudoing to root in order to
get journalctl to produce output my LESS environment variable is not
having any effect because sudo removes it from the environment.


If I switch to root and set LESS in the root shell and then run
journalctl with -a then I get line wrapping.


Tom

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Old 10-09-2012, 03:00 PM
Matthew Miller
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 10:45:24AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > c) it auto-pages if run on a tty
> Hmmm. That's not necessarily what people are expecting, but okay.

To expand on this: there is a general expectation that non-interactive
console tools will return control to the user immediately. Auto-paging is a
different user-experience that doesn't necessarily dovetail with the Linux
lineage. UI and UX aren't _just_ for GUI programs, after all. If we want to
sell journalctl (and systemd in general) as a step forward for sysadmins, we
need to take the sysadmin user commmunity's UI expectations seriously.

Compared to the other things I mentioned this is less important (because
hey, sysadmins can learn new ways!), but I wanted to elaborate on where this
is coming from.

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Old 10-09-2012, 03:02 PM
Matthew Miller
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 03:45:46PM +0100, Tom Hughes wrote:
> Sure, though having just tried that is took 33s to search about a
> months worth of logs instead of the 0.05s that greping the last
> months messages took ;-)

That's not insignificant (again, goes to sysadmin user experience). Can you
file a bug with some data?

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Old 10-09-2012, 03:24 PM
Richard Marko
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On 10/09/2012 05:00 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 10:45:24AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
>>> c) it auto-pages if run on a tty
>> Hmmm. That's not necessarily what people are expecting, but okay.
> To expand on this: there is a general expectation that non-interactive
> console tools will return control to the user immediately. Auto-paging is a
> different user-experience that doesn't necessarily dovetail with the Linux
> lineage. UI and UX aren't _just_ for GUI programs, after all. If we want to
> sell journalctl (and systemd in general) as a step forward for sysadmins, we
> need to take the sysadmin user commmunity's UI expectations seriously.
>
> Compared to the other things I mentioned this is less important (because
> hey, sysadmins can learn new ways!), but I wanted to elaborate on where this
> is coming from.

+1. For example swapping action and name parameters for systemctl
compared to service calls is just annoying.

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Old 10-09-2012, 03:30 PM
Matthew Miller
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 05:24:42PM +0200, Richard Marko wrote:
> > Compared to the other things I mentioned this is less important (because
> > hey, sysadmins can learn new ways!), but I wanted to elaborate on where this
> > is coming from.
> +1. For example swapping action and name parameters for systemctl
> compared to service calls is just annoying.

Yes. Again, you're not the first person I've heard this from. Likewise,
needing to fill out the .service extension. Both make a certain logical
sense from a design point of view, but they're not putting the user first.


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Old 10-09-2012, 03:40 PM
Michal Schmidt
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On 10/09/2012 04:45 PM, Tom Hughes wrote:

On 09/10/12 15:35, Bryn M. Reeves wrote:

journalctl | fgrep?

This one is pretty fine by me tbh.


Sure, though having just tried that is took 33s to search about a months
worth of logs instead of the 0.05s that greping the last months messages
took ;-)


Before filing bugs about this, please test on F18 or Rawhide. The
journal received performance fixes after F17.


Michal

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Old 10-09-2012, 03:42 PM
Michal Schmidt
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On 10/09/2012 05:30 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

Yes. Again, you're not the first person I've heard this from. Likewise,
needing to fill out the .service extension.


In current versions .service is implied if no extension is provided:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39386

Michal

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Old 10-09-2012, 03:58 PM
Simo Sorce
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, 2012-10-09 at 15:38 +0000, "Jhann B. Gumundsson" wrote:
> On 10/09/2012 03:30 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 05:24:42PM +0200, Richard Marko wrote:
> >>> Compared to the other things I mentioned this is less important (because
> >>> hey, sysadmins can learn new ways!), but I wanted to elaborate on where this
> >>> is coming from.
> >> +1. For example swapping action and name parameters for systemctl
> >> compared to service calls is just annoying.
> > Yes. Again, you're not the first person I've heard this from. Likewise,
> > needing to fill out the .service extension. Both make a certain logical
> > sense from a design point of view, but they're not putting the user first.
>
> Probably changing this is not doable since you have multiple types of
> units that can have the same name foo.path foo.target foo.service
> foo.timer etc.
>
> As I have set from the get go it is best for administrator and users
> alike to forget all they know of the legacy sysv init stuff and approach
> systemd with a fresh mind and as a *new* technology

Oh come on, you just use a default when it is missing (.service) and
require it fully formed for the others.

Simo.

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Old 10-09-2012, 03:59 PM
Simo Sorce
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

On Tue, 2012-10-09 at 17:42 +0200, Michal Schmidt wrote:
> On 10/09/2012 05:30 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > Yes. Again, you're not the first person I've heard this from. Likewise,
> > needing to fill out the .service extension.
>
> In current versions .service is implied if no extension is provided:
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39386

About time :-)

Simo.

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Old 10-09-2012, 04:01 PM
Reindl Harald
 
Default replacing rsyslogd in minimal with journald

Am 09.10.2012 17:38, schrieb Jhann B. Gumundsson:
> On 10/09/2012 03:30 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 05:24:42PM +0200, Richard Marko wrote:
>>>> Compared to the other things I mentioned this is less important (because
>>>> hey, sysadmins can learn new ways!), but I wanted to elaborate on where this
>>>> is coming from.
>>> +1. For example swapping action and name parameters for systemctl
>>> compared to service calls is just annoying.
>> Yes. Again, you're not the first person I've heard this from. Likewise,
>> needing to fill out the .service extension. Both make a certain logical
>> sense from a design point of view, but they're not putting the user first.
>
> Probably changing this is not doable since you have multiple types of units that can have the same name foo.path
> foo.target foo.service foo.timer etc.

why should this be a problem?
if no extensions is given assume .service

here i would even go so far to say if ONLY ONE param is given without
extension assume all available ones which would even solve the problem
"systemctl stop anything.service" without realize there maybe a
"anything.socket" fire up the service implicit

if i say "systemctl stop cups" i mean stop it
if i say "systemctl stop cups.service" i mean stop it
in both cases i expect cups is no longer running
in none of both cases i mean "cups.socket fire it up again"

> As I have set from the get go it is best for administrator and users alike to forget all they know of the legacy
> sysv init stuff and approach systemd with a fresh mind and as a *new* technology

that is not the point
the point is additional typing work

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