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Old 10-08-2012, 10:14 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default systemd requires HTTP server and serves QR codes

On Mon, 08.10.12 19:37, Miloslav Trmač (mitr@volny.cz) wrote:

> > The live-syncing logging logic that is available in 184 as a preview is
> > based on JSON and HTTP (in order to build as much on existing standards
> > as possible, and get best integration with other systems). In order to
> > keep the footprint low we decided to use an existing embeddable minimal
> > HTTP engine for that, rather than writing our own. Correspondingly the
> > microhttpd library is only pulled in by the journal gateway daemon,
> > which is responsible for the HTTP iface to the journal. We thought about
> > splitting this off into an individual package (and it would be really
> > easy to still do that), but as the code of libmicrohttpd is minimal, and
> > it doesn't pull in any deps beyond what is already in the minimal
> > installation set we didn't bother so far.
>
> We support a "minimal installation" target
> (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MinimalPlatform ), and this
> really doesn't seem like something that should be included, for the
> same reason we don't ship a disabled-by-default ident or httpd in the
> minimal installation.

Well, I am all for minimizing the minimal installation set, and can
applaud attempts to continiusly make data avilable where we stand with
this and which packages are the worst dependency and size hogs. However,
afaics the feature you mentioned is kinda dead? is any current data
available about how our minimal footprint got worse/better over time in
both terms of packages and disk space, and which packages are to blame
for it?

If the libmicrohttpd dep really is problematic I am happy to split it
off, but I'd really like some hard data first whether doing this would
help more than a trivial bit to achieve a smaller minimal installation
set.

Lennart

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Old 10-08-2012, 11:00 PM
Miloslav Trmač
 
Default systemd requires HTTP server and serves QR codes

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 12:14 AM, Lennart Poettering
<mzerqung@0pointer.de> wrote:
> On Mon, 08.10.12 19:37, Miloslav Trmač (mitr@volny.cz) wrote:
>> We support a "minimal installation" target
>> (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MinimalPlatform ), and this
>> really doesn't seem like something that should be included, for the
>> same reason we don't ship a disabled-by-default ident or httpd in the
>> minimal installation.
>
> Well, I am all for minimizing the minimal installation set, and can
> applaud attempts to continiusly make data avilable where we stand with
> this and which packages are the worst dependency and size hogs. However,
> afaics the feature you mentioned is kinda dead?

It's not dead: anaconda offers that option, and we aim to look at new
problems at least once per release. Milan Brož has been recently
examining the F18 status.

Looking at bugzllla, Fedora QA uses it (#862238), and you have
personally responded to a minimal install-related bug less then a
month ago (#852828).

> is any current data
> available about how our minimal footprint got worse/better over time in
> both terms of packages and disk space, and which packages are to blame
> for it?
>
> If the libmicrohttpd dep really is problematic I am happy to split it
> off, but I'd really like some hard data first whether doing this would
> help more than a trivial bit to achieve a smaller minimal installation
> set.

One more network-listening service, let alone an unauthenticated one,
is way "more than a trivial bit" IMHO.

The disk space aspect is by far the most negligible of the four
reasons for a minimal installation I have mentioned earlier today.
(The cost of a megabyte of storage is practically indistinguishable
from zero, and even multiplied by the number of Fedora users it is not
a number that would inspire much work.) If you are curious about
specific data, I don't have it available; I'll ask around.
Mirek
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:00 AM
Ray Strode
 
Default systemd requires HTTP server and serves QR codes

Hi,

On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung@0pointer.de> wrote:

> Correct. Note that this is not accessible at all, by default, and mostly
> a preview for now. Later on we will add http digest auth and proper TLS
> support (including client certs) if people want to control
> access. (thankfully, libmicrohttpd already implements auth+tls, so this
> is easy for us to provide).
I think negotiate-auth would be a really good feature here, since many
enterprise deployments use kerberos based SSO in their intranets.

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Old 10-09-2012, 04:34 AM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default systemd requires HTTP server and serves QR codes

Miloslav Trmač (mitr@volny.cz) said:
> > is any current data
> > available about how our minimal footprint got worse/better over time in
> > both terms of packages and disk space, and which packages are to blame
> > for it?
> >
> > If the libmicrohttpd dep really is problematic I am happy to split it
> > off, but I'd really like some hard data first whether doing this would
> > help more than a trivial bit to achieve a smaller minimal installation
> > set.
>
> One more network-listening service, let alone an unauthenticated one,
> is way "more than a trivial bit" IMHO.

Well, it *is* off by default.

Checking the minimal install of the moment:

Install 38 Packages (+160 Dependent packages)

Total download size: 129 M
Installed size: 505 M

In that minimal install, the following disabled services exist:
NetworkManager-wait-online.service
autovt@.service
console-getty.service
console-shell.service
debug-shell.service
dnsmasq.service
ip6tables.service
iptables.service
rdisc.service
saslauthd.service
wpa_supplicant.service
systemd-journal-gatewayd.socket

The follwing 'traditional' services are enabled:
auditd.service
sshd.service
sm-client.service
sendmail.service
NetworkManager.service
crond.service
rsyslog.service

Bill
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:20 AM
"Jhann B. Gumundsson"
 
Default systemd requires HTTP server and serves QR codes

On 10/09/2012 07:50 AM, H. Peter Anvin wrote:

On 10/09/2012 03:10 PM, "Jhann B. Gumundsson" wrote:

On 10/09/2012 04:34 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote:

rsyslog.service

Remind me again of the reason why we are still shipping rsyslog by
default now that we have the journal?


An undocumented, acknowledged-experimental binary data format for logs?
Sysadmins will kill you.


So the so called sysadmin which capable of killing me is not capable of
either adding it manually to his .ks file or at install it afterwards if
he cant learn or like as you put it the "undocumented,
acknowledged-experimental binary data format for logs".


Kudos to those sysadmins...

JBG
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:44 AM
"Jhann B. Gumundsson"
 
Default systemd requires HTTP server and serves QR codes

On 10/09/2012 08:28 AM, H. Peter Anvin
wrote:



The problem is that they generally get to clean up a system long *after*
is has been installed by someone else, crashed, and needs to be recovered.



Here you are fighting about libmicrohttpd ( 48KB ) and qrencode-libs
( 46.3KB ) while we have rsyslog ( 601KB ) which is totally
unnecessary and should not be a part of the default minimal install
since we already have the journal, an logging solution that comes
with systemd and fits embedded home admins servers and the desktop.



Again there is still nothing preventing them from installing it via
.ks or afterwards if they want need all the bells and whistle that
rsyslog or syslog-ng provide over the journal.



JBG



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Old 10-09-2012, 09:01 AM
"Jhann B. Gumundsson"
 
Default systemd requires HTTP server and serves QR codes

On 10/09/2012 08:47 AM, H. Peter Anvin wrote:

Yes, I can travel back in time and fix someone else's badly installed
server that they are asking me to fix or do forensic analysis of.
Brilliant idea.


Who does not want to travel back in time? =)

JBG
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:24 AM
Milan Broz
 
Default systemd requires HTTP server and serves QR codes

On 10/09/2012 12:14 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote:

> Well, I am all for minimizing the minimal installation set, and can
> applaud attempts to continiusly make data avilable where we stand with
> this and which packages are the worst dependency and size hogs. However,
> afaics the feature you mentioned is kinda dead? is any current data
> available about how our minimal footprint got worse/better over time in
> both terms of packages and disk space, and which packages are to blame
> for it?
>
> If the libmicrohttpd dep really is problematic I am happy to split it
> off, but I'd really like some hard data first whether doing this would
> help more than a trivial bit to achieve a smaller minimal installation
> set.

Used space is only one aspect of it, here systemd written in C and compiled
is really not problematic

I am currently trying to find unneeded dependence chains in minimal set of packages
(we should get rid od e.g. old ininstripts, chkconfig, systemd-sysv in spec
- still a lot of them).

But the "minimal install" (whatever it means) is often used as base for various
automatic appliance installs, test systems etc where you want to minimize
services and installed libraries (either because of "security" or because
you need simple testbed for development.)

(Well, my main focus was to RHEL, with current Fedora installer state I have
no idea what is now really supported for end user...)

Whatever, it would be really nice to split some functionality of systemd to
sub packages and allow admin to uninstall it (later, or from kickstart).

Not that is it good argument, but

# rpm -ql systemd |wc -l
571

For me, I would really prefer to have separate

- systemd-cryptsetup
(generally, to be able to install system without cryptsetup->device-mapper libs
dependences if only plain partitions are used, as they are in VM)
- system-readahead
- systemd-journal (or at least that extended httpd part)
- systemd-udev

maybe *.[service|mount|timer|...] unit files could live in separate subpackage as well

(I know that you cannot uninstall udev and units in reality, but you can
install own testing package and not touch other systemd files and it surely help
auditing)

(To not blame systemd only - grub2 & Co. has nice deps chain as well :-)

Milan
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:31 PM
"Richard W.M. Jones"
 
Default systemd requires HTTP server and serves QR codes

On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 12:24:03PM +0200, Milan Broz wrote:
> - systemd-udev

+1 .. udev should really be a separate package again.

Also, please stop moving udevd around.

Rich.

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Old 10-09-2012, 12:53 PM
Muayyad AlSadi
 
Default systemd requires HTTP server and serves QR codes

use binary format they said,
it will be fun they said!


On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 1:58 PM, "Jhann B. Gumundsson" <johannbg@gmail.com> wrote:

On 10/09/2012 10:24 AM, Milan Broz wrote:


But the "minimal install" (whatever it means) is often used as base for various

automatic appliance installs, test systems etc where you want to minimize

services and installed libraries (either because of "security" or because

you need simple testbed for development.)




As you points out "minimal install" means different thing to each of us for example to me it should be nothing more then the CoreOS itself with minimal set of tools and an install/update application ( yum )




Does releng/fesco have it documented somewhere what they considered to be the minimal install set and why they have chosen to included to some of us questionable packages as part of that minimal install set.



Like to me rsyslog since the journal is an integrated part of systemd.



JBG

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