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Old 10-08-2012, 09:11 AM
Reindl Harald
 
Default Any progress in Software Center in Fedora effort?

Am 08.10.2012 10:49, schrieb Jiri Eischmann:
> Reindl Harald p*še v Ne 07. 10. 2012 v 20:02 +0200:
>> why have we different operating systems and distributions if all
>> satisfies the same user-base for every price? there is also a need
>> for a clean and straight forwarded linux without compromises only
>> to fetch users better satisfied with OSX or windows
>
> How would Software Center hold you from enjoying clean and straight
> forwarded Linux? It's just an app. Anyone who'd like to would be able to
> use YUM, YUMEX, Add/Remove, Apper,...

hopefully this will be true

there are many environments with no need for packagekit/software
center and if dependencies will still be careful to not pull
many packages as cross-deps all are satisfied


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Old 10-08-2012, 11:46 AM
Matthew Miller
 
Default Any progress in Software Center in Fedora effort?

On Sun, Oct 07, 2012 at 09:32:33PM +0300, Nikos Roussos wrote:
> I still haven't understand what it takes to get this started. Besides of
> course from having some people dedicating some time on that. Convincing
> infrastructure team is the first step? Does this need to get through FESCO
> first?

Writing up a specific plan is the first step.

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Old 10-08-2012, 12:15 PM
Tomas Radej
 
Default Any progress in Software Center in Fedora effort?

On 10/08/2012 10:49 AM, Jiri Eischmann wrote:

And why are noobs something unwanted?
As I said above, most new computer science students at our local
technical university are Linux noobs who would appreciate something like
this. They have potential to be good contributors in a few years if
Fedora hooks them up now. Unfortunately, our competition is more
successful at this and it will have an impact on our contributor base in
long term.
Absolutely. I was one of those. When I started studying at the
university, I knew little beyond Windows and Ubuntu, and their software
center has for long been the exclusive way I was getting software. After
some time, I started using aptitude, but still I had liked to get it the
point&click way.


I do believe that as long as we can maintain them, more non-cli apps for
linux beginners guys are only beneficial to the community, as they help
lure in people from Windows and other platforms. After all, most
"Windows" people who I've talked to about Linux said that they can't use
it as it routinely requires them to go to the command line or edit some
config file.


So, totally a +1 to the Software Center.

Tomas Radej

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Old 10-08-2012, 02:49 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default Any progress in Software Center in Fedora effort?

On 10/08/2012 10:49 AM, Jiri Eischmann wrote:

Reindl Harald p*še v Ne 07. 10. 2012 v 20:02 +0200:

Am 07.10.2012 19:55, schrieb drago01:

Maybe maybe not. The point is that a fancy software shop would result
into this "old mother" type of user consider to use fedora.
A user ultimately don't care about packages but about applications.
Other distritors are moving in this direction while we fall behind.
We should lead here like we do in other areas.


why do we need to lead everywehre for every price?


It will be nice if more people uses Fedora, but it not the main target, the
greatness of Fedora is not measured but how many user it have, compared to
other Linuxes or other os'es.


Well without users (and growth) it will become irrelevant and thus it
will become harder to achieve anything else.


nobody says "without users"
but do we really need every noob as user?


Why does some of us imply it's about noobs?
Because hardly any of the non-noobs misses this "Software Center" and
because non-noobs know that the term "apps" is an Apple/Google marketing
hype?



Anyone who'd like to would be able to
use YUM, YUMEX, Add/Remove, Apper,...
Pardon, I do not understand what's your problem is. If it's just a "yet
another frontend/GUI program", why not package it? If it requires some
server side infrastructure you will have to talk to FESCO.


Ralf


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Old 10-08-2012, 03:17 PM
Nikos Roussos
 
Default Any progress in Software Center in Fedora effort?

On Mon, 2012-10-08 at 16:49 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:


On 10/08/2012 10:49 AM, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> Reindl Harald p*še v Ne 07. 10. 2012 v 20:02 +0200:
>> Am 07.10.2012 19:55, schrieb drago01:
>>> Maybe maybe not. The point is that a fancy software shop would result
>>> into this "old mother" type of user consider to use fedora.
>>> A user ultimately don't care about packages but about applications.
>>> Other distritors are moving in this direction while we fall behind.
>>> We should lead here like we do in other areas.
>>
>> why do we need to lead everywehre for every price?
>>
>>>> It will be nice if more people uses Fedora, but it not the main target, the
>>>> greatness of Fedora is not measured but how many user it have, compared to
>>>> other Linuxes or other os'es.
>>>
>>> Well without users (and growth) it will become irrelevant and thus it
>>> will become harder to achieve anything else.
>>
>> nobody says "without users"
>> but do we really need every noob as user?
>
> Why does some of us imply it's about noobs?
Because hardly any of the non-noobs misses this "Software Center" and
because non-noobs know that the term "apps" is an Apple/Google marketing
hype?




User experience is important for everyone. Not just noobs.

And currently Fedora is certainly not "first" when it comes on Applications installation user experience.







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Old 10-08-2012, 03:51 PM
Álvaro Castillo
 
Default Any progress in Software Center in Fedora effort?

On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Nikos Roussos <comzeradd@fedoraproject.org> wrote:









On Mon, 2012-10-08 at 16:49 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

On 10/08/2012 10:49 AM, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> Reindl Harald p*še v Ne 07. 10. 2012 v 20:02 +0200:
>> Am 07.10.2012 19:55, schrieb drago01:
>>> Maybe maybe not. The point is that a fancy software shop would result
>>> into this "old mother" type of user consider to use fedora.
>>> A user ultimately don't care about packages but about applications.
>>> Other distritors are moving in this direction while we fall behind.
>>> We should lead here like we do in other areas.
>>
>> why do we need to lead everywehre for every price?
>>
>>>> It will be nice if more people uses Fedora, but it not the main target, the
>>>> greatness of Fedora is not measured but how many user it have, compared to
>>>> other Linuxes or other os'es.
>>>
>>> Well without users (and growth) it will become irrelevant and thus it
>>> will become harder to achieve anything else.
>>
>> nobody says "without users"
>> but do we really need every noob as user?
>
> Why does some of us imply it's about noobs?
Because hardly any of the non-noobs misses this "Software Center" and
because non-noobs know that the term "apps" is an Apple/Google marketing
hype?




User experience is important for everyone. Not just noobs.

And currently Fedora is certainly not "first" when it comes on Applications installation user experience.








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Advantages:
- Do not depend on one or more managers to install something.


- More easy admin packages for end-users
- In desktops or window managers is more practical to use a "software center" on another environment managers and many bookstores such as Openbox, wmii, Fluxbox....



NOTE: openSUSE has got YaST (good!) withouth remove to Ark. Is no excuse to not create it if you follow the upstream projects like GNOME or KDE.

Disadvantages
- Much time and effort
- Search people interested in doing it


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Old 10-08-2012, 07:49 PM
Stephen John Smoogen
 
Default Any progress in Software Center in Fedora effort?

On 5 October 2012 15:42, Richard Hughes <hughsient@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5 October 2012 16:19, Jiri Eischmann <eischmann@redhat.com> wrote:
>> 1) Software Center based on PackageKit by Matthias
>> 2) Light Software Center - a new app based on PackageKit from the
>> beginning
>> 3) Apper already supports AppStream [2]
>
> Basically, Fedora needs to ship Appstream metadata and then we can
> just include any one of the two existing projects. To that, we need
> someone who's got an interest in working with the infrastructure guys
> in Fedora. I tried, but failed.

It is not just infrastructure, but I understand we are a major
blocker. Getting past the legal blockers is possible but
infrastructure wants a plan, a continuing budget and a bodies that are
dedicated to the project. Fedora has a huge history of "Hey this is a
great idea!" and getting a 30% solution put out with the idea that it
will become a 80% solution if people just wish hard enough... instead
the people who started it go off to new stuff that interests them and
the people who come after either throw away what was done before or
find that real life has other plans for them. And then infrastructure
gets handed the reigns of the nearly dead website, phone service, etc.
And when we say we can't support it.. we have to spend a year proving
that we can't get anyone to step up while everyone says "Geez
infrastructure can't do anything right."

Look we have a lot of great ideas that we all would love to have
happen. However just because we have them doesn't mean we have the
resources to make them happen. There needs to be web design, web
application coding, processes for getting applications in and
approved, servers and disk space for this. Those are the hardest part
and it is a blocker because if no one is around to keep a service
going and growing it quickly becomes run by cargo cult.




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so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I
recommend pleasant. You may quote me." —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:39 PM
drago01
 
Default Any progress in Software Center in Fedora effort?

On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Stephen John Smoogen <smooge@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...] There needs to be web design, web
> application coding, processes for getting applications in and
> approved, servers and disk space for this. Those are the hardest part
> and it is a blocker because if no one is around to keep a service
> going and growing it quickly becomes run by cargo cult.

No one but Tim asked for a web based solution. We don't need an
application submission process either, just present the applications
we have in a more usable manner (i.e applications not packages).
The code for a native application support is mostly there. People that
want to maintain this code are also present.
What is missing is generating the required metadata (which requires
support from the infrastructure team).
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:58 PM
Kevin Fenzi
 
Default Any progress in Software Center in Fedora effort?

On Mon, 8 Oct 2012 22:39:21 +0200
drago01 <drago01@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Stephen John Smoogen
> <smooge@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [...] There needs to be web design, web
> > application coding, processes for getting applications in and
> > approved, servers and disk space for this. Those are the hardest
> > part and it is a blocker because if no one is around to keep a
> > service going and growing it quickly becomes run by cargo cult.
>
> No one but Tim asked for a web based solution. We don't need an
> application submission process either, just present the applications
> we have in a more usable manner (i.e applications not packages).
> The code for a native application support is mostly there. People that
> want to maintain this code are also present.
> What is missing is generating the required metadata (which requires
> support from the infrastructure team).

I'd like to see a concrete plan for generating that metadata, and sign
off from the folks who know our current metadata generation process.
That would be: rel-eng folks, bodhi maintainers, yum and rpm
developers.

Once everyone has reached a consensus on the plan, we would need folks
willing to work on/maintain the needed changes.

Last time this came up, there was no good census on the metadata needed
or how to generate it, IIRC. (Happy to be proven wrong)

kevin
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:59 PM
Matthew Miller
 
Default Any progress in Software Center in Fedora effort?

On Mon, Oct 08, 2012 at 10:39:21PM +0200, drago01 wrote:
> No one but Tim asked for a web based solution. We don't need an
> application submission process either, just present the applications
> we have in a more usable manner (i.e applications not packages).
> The code for a native application support is mostly there. People that
> want to maintain this code are also present.
> What is missing is generating the required metadata (which requires
> support from the infrastructure team).

Let me check my understanding.... for this metadata, we need to, at
repository compose time:

1. look in each rpm for a desktop file
2. pull the desktop file out of the rpm
3. put that info into a data structure
4. write that out as xml

Is there more?

So, in addition to putting forth an overall plan -- which is still an
important step! -- it looks like an obvious thing to do is work on adding
this functionality to createrepo. Then it's just a matter of asking the
release engineering team to turn it on, right? (And helping deal with any
performance costs -- it's unfortunate that the file has to be pulled out of
the RPM. If this is very successful, a future version of RPM could add
metadata from the desktop file at build time.)

Alternately, this could be done asynchronously, since the metadata doesn't
care about specific package version and release, just the name, so if they
get a little out of sync it's probably okay. So it _could_ be a separate
tool. Here, there's no reason someone couldn't stand this up separately as a
proof of concept.

And, a yum plugin could be written that would search on and install these
applications, just as yum currently handles groupinstall.

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