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Old 09-26-2012, 09:58 AM
Martin Sourada
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 16:44:16 +0200
Kevin Kofler wrote:

> drago01 wrote:
> > Because some people that can actually use it (i.e I never
> > accidentally click when trying to move the mouse; maybe you just
> > have a crappy touchpad?).
>
> On my notebook, touchpad tapping is off of course. I have this
> problem each time I try to use somebody else's touchpad which has
> tapping enabled. Many different touchpads, always the same problem.
> So it's not just a particular crappy touchpad.
>
I wonder if you have problem with touch-screen smart-phones as well,
it's essentially the same thing as far as your fingers are concerned.

As it never happened to me, it's kind of a mystery how you can
accidentally type while moving... Also there's one nice feature on
touchpads with tap-to-click, that you can double-tap-and-move to
drag (and drop afterward).

What I have personal issues with is accidental tapping while typing, but
that can be avoided by using "Disable touchpad when typing" setting...

The good thing about tapping is, as someone else already said,
a) you don't have to move your finger (i.e. you click where you moved,
which is pretty much intuitive). This is a massive win when you
click often.
b) It's silent (the touchpad buttons usually emit rather loud clicking
noise which is annoying, especially when clicking often).
c) You do not have to press as hard when tapping.
d) You can scroll using touchpad.

That said, I still prefer wireless mouse to touchpad and, when not
travelling, also use it, so I don't get bothered much by the current
default setting.

Martin
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:54 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On Wed, 2012-09-26 at 11:58 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 16:44:16 +0200
> Kevin Kofler wrote:
>
> > drago01 wrote:
> > > Because some people that can actually use it (i.e I never
> > > accidentally click when trying to move the mouse; maybe you just
> > > have a crappy touchpad?).
> >
> > On my notebook, touchpad tapping is off of course. I have this
> > problem each time I try to use somebody else's touchpad which has
> > tapping enabled. Many different touchpads, always the same problem.
> > So it's not just a particular crappy touchpad.
> >
> I wonder if you have problem with touch-screen smart-phones as well,
> it's essentially the same thing as far as your fingers are concerned.
>
> As it never happened to me, it's kind of a mystery how you can
> accidentally type while moving... Also there's one nice feature on
> touchpads with tap-to-click, that you can double-tap-and-move to
> drag (and drop afterward).

When lots of people who clearly aren't complete idiots tell you
something happens to them, it's probably best just to accept that it
does, because arguing that you can't possibly see how it could possibly
happen to them is only going to make you look churlish.

It happens to Kevin, it happens to me, it happens to lots of other
people, which is why the experts in the field have set the default they
have. They didn't make it up out of thin air.
--
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http://www.happyassassin.net

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Old 09-26-2012, 05:13 PM
Álvaro Castillo
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

Please do not call "idiots" anybody this is a community. Respect no a MTV Jersey Shore programm.


I do not understand that say Kevin. I talk about No buttons around the touchpad. I speak of the touch pad that allows you to do almost the same as a mouse.


A lot users wants enabled by default these touch pad I say.

On Sep 26, 2012 4:54 PM, "Adam Williamson" <awilliam@redhat.com> wrote:

On Wed, 2012-09-26 at 11:58 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 16:44:16 +0200

> Kevin Kofler wrote:

>

> > drago01 wrote:

> > > Because some people that can actually use it (i.e I never

> > > accidentally click when trying to move the mouse; maybe you just

> > > have a crappy touchpad?).

> >

> > On my notebook, touchpad tapping is off of course. I have this

> > problem each time I try to use somebody else's touchpad which has

> > tapping enabled. Many different touchpads, always the same problem.

> > So it's not just a particular crappy touchpad.

> >

> I wonder if you have problem with touch-screen smart-phones as well,

> it's essentially the same thing as far as your fingers are concerned.

>

> As it never happened to me, it's kind of a mystery how you can

> accidentally type while moving... Also there's one nice feature on

> touchpads with tap-to-click, that you can double-tap-and-move to

> drag (and drop afterward).



When lots of people who clearly aren't complete idiots tell you

something happens to them, it's probably best just to accept that it

does, because arguing that you can't possibly see how it could possibly

happen to them is only going to make you look churlish.



It happens to Kevin, it happens to me, it happens to lots of other

people, which is why the experts in the field have set the default they

have. They didn't make it up out of thin air.

--

Adam Williamson

Fedora QA Community Monkey

IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora

http://www.happyassassin.net



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Old 09-26-2012, 05:21 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On Wed, 2012-09-26 at 18:13 +0100, Álvaro Castillo wrote:
> Please do not call "idiots" anybody this is a community. Respect no a
> MTV Jersey Shore programm.

Sorry if it was unclear, but I didn't call anyone an idiot. I said that
the people who complain about accidental touchpad presses are clearly
*not* idiots, and there was no implication that "and therefore, other
people are idiots". I was just saying that there clearly are people who
have the problem with unintended touchpad presses, and those people are
known not to be complete idiots, so there's no reason to discount their
testimony.
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:15 PM
"Nathanael D. Noblet"
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

I wonder if this couldn't be a RFE for anaconda. Maybe not possible,
however couldn't we allow the upload of a kickstart 'snippet' or
something where users installing Fedora could provide snippets to set
the defaults at install time? Something where it doesn't really need a
full blown kickstart, but somehow merges only the pieces that are
inputted?? This way there are the defaults, but a community of 'user
preference' snippets could exist etc...


Just a random thought.

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Old 09-26-2012, 06:23 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On Wed, 2012-09-26 at 12:15 -0600, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote:
> I wonder if this couldn't be a RFE for anaconda. Maybe not possible,
> however couldn't we allow the upload of a kickstart 'snippet' or
> something where users installing Fedora could provide snippets to set
> the defaults at install time? Something where it doesn't really need a
> full blown kickstart, but somehow merges only the pieces that are
> inputted?? This way there are the defaults, but a community of 'user
> preference' snippets could exist etc...

kickstarts can already be partial and anaconda will prompt for anything
that's not covered. I've never tested a kickstart which *only* did %
post, which is more or less what this would be (AFAICS), though.
--
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:30 PM
"Nathanael D. Noblet"
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On 09/26/2012 12:23 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Wed, 2012-09-26 at 12:15 -0600, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote:

I wonder if this couldn't be a RFE for anaconda. Maybe not possible,
however couldn't we allow the upload of a kickstart 'snippet' or
something where users installing Fedora could provide snippets to set
the defaults at install time? Something where it doesn't really need a
full blown kickstart, but somehow merges only the pieces that are
inputted?? This way there are the defaults, but a community of 'user
preference' snippets could exist etc...


kickstarts can already be partial and anaconda will prompt for anything
that's not covered. I've never tested a kickstart which *only* did %
post, which is more or less what this would be (AFAICS), though.

Yeah, something where it could accept a file upload, or typed right
in... or one day loaded from a list of community snippets to include.


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Old 09-26-2012, 06:51 PM
les
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On Wed, 2012-09-26 at 18:13 +0100, Álvaro Castillo wrote:
> Please do not call "idiots" anybody this is a community. Respect no a
> MTV Jersey Shore programm.
>
> I do not understand that say Kevin. I talk about No buttons around the
> touchpad. I speak of the touch pad that allows you to do almost the
> same as a mouse.
>
> A lot users wants enabled by default these touch pad I say.
>
> On Sep 26, 2012 4:54 PM, "Adam Williamson" <awilliam@redhat.com>
> wrote:
> On Wed, 2012-09-26 at 11:58 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
> > On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 16:44:16 +0200
> > Kevin Kofler wrote:
> >
> > > drago01 wrote:
> > > > Because some people that can actually use it (i.e I
> never
> > > > accidentally click when trying to move the mouse; maybe
> you just
> > > > have a crappy touchpad?).
> > >
> > > On my notebook, touchpad tapping is off of course. I have
> this
> > > problem each time I try to use somebody else's touchpad
> which has
> > > tapping enabled. Many different touchpads, always the same
> problem.
> > > So it's not just a particular crappy touchpad.
> > >
> > I wonder if you have problem with touch-screen smart-phones
> as well,
> > it's essentially the same thing as far as your fingers are
> concerned.
> >
> > As it never happened to me, it's kind of a mystery how you
> can
> > accidentally type while moving... Also there's one nice
> feature on
> > touchpads with tap-to-click, that you can
> double-tap-and-move to
> > drag (and drop afterward).
>
> When lots of people who clearly aren't complete idiots tell
> you
> something happens to them, it's probably best just to accept
> that it
> does, because arguing that you can't possibly see how it could
> possibly
> happen to them is only going to make you look churlish.
>
> It happens to Kevin, it happens to me, it happens to lots of
> other
> people, which is why the experts in the field have set the
> default they
> have. They didn't make it up out of thin air.
> --
> Adam Williamson
> Fedora QA Community Monkey
> IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
> http://www.happyassassin.net
>
> --
> devel mailing list
> devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

I do not want touch pad taps enabled by default. I do have the problem,
and most people I know have the problem that the touch pads are not all
sufficiently "debounced" to make this feature useful. Nor do most of
them handle multiple point touches well, or many other issues such as
dry hands that will cause skipping and be interpreted as taps.

Please, you can enable this feature if you want it, and if your touchpad
handles it well, then good for you.

Tapping is a "feature", not a characteristic of touch pad use, and as
such should be accessible to those who want it, but not enabled by
default.

Just my personal point of view.

Regards,
Les H

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Old 09-27-2012, 12:17 AM
Peter Hutterer
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 11:58:51AM +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 16:44:16 +0200
> Kevin Kofler wrote:
>
> > drago01 wrote:
> > > Because some people that can actually use it (i.e I never
> > > accidentally click when trying to move the mouse; maybe you just
> > > have a crappy touchpad?).
> >
> > On my notebook, touchpad tapping is off of course. I have this
> > problem each time I try to use somebody else's touchpad which has
> > tapping enabled. Many different touchpads, always the same problem.
> > So it's not just a particular crappy touchpad.
> >
> I wonder if you have problem with touch-screen smart-phones as well,
> it's essentially the same thing as far as your fingers are concerned.

not quite. smart-phones are explicit touch screens and the only
interaction you have with them is touch. and it's direct-touch interaction
as well. on a touchpad, an indirect device by nature, accidental touches can
happen while the keyboard is being used. That depends on touchpad size, hand
size, position of the hands, finger conductivity and even environmental
conditions.

> As it never happened to me, it's kind of a mystery how you can
> accidentally type while moving... Also there's one nice feature on
> touchpads with tap-to-click, that you can double-tap-and-move to
> drag (and drop afterward).
>
> What I have personal issues with is accidental tapping while typing, but
> that can be avoided by using "Disable touchpad when typing" setting...
>
> The good thing about tapping is, as someone else already said,
> a) you don't have to move your finger (i.e. you click where you moved,
> which is pretty much intuitive). This is a massive win when you
> click often.

fwiw, "intuitive" is a dangerous word to use. "learned" is better and more
accurate in most cases.

> b) It's silent (the touchpad buttons usually emit rather loud clicking
> noise which is annoying, especially when clicking often).

note that the noise is feedback to the user that the event happened. I
recall a study by (I think) MS that showed the importance of this.
if you have software that does not react to a button press event, users on
physical devices (mouse) are inclined to think the software is broken, users
on touch devices (touchscreen) are inclined to think the touchscreen is
broken. depending on the scenario, this can be an important distinction.

> c) You do not have to press as hard when tapping.
> d) You can scroll using touchpad.

scrolling and tapping are unrelated in our driver.

Cheers,
Peter
>
> That said, I still prefer wireless mouse to touchpad and, when not
> travelling, also use it, so I don't get bothered much by the current
> default setting.
>
> Martin

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Old 09-27-2012, 06:39 AM
Matthias Runge
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On 09/26/2012 11:58 AM, Martin Sourada wrote:

What I have personal issues with is accidental tapping while typing, but
that can be avoided by using "Disable touchpad when typing" setting...
For that reason, I like my touchpads switched off by default. No
touchpad, no issue.
Having to set a focus on another window, just because a sleeve touched
the pad is only annoying and unnecessary. I also use my keyboard far
more often than any mouse/touchpad/trackpoint.


We have seen for or five different preferences: I don't think, we should
change that default.

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