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Old 09-27-2012, 06:45 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On Thu, 2012-09-27 at 13:59 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
> Hi Adam,
>
> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:54:07 -0700
> Adam Williamson wrote:
> > When lots of people who clearly aren't complete idiots tell you
> > something happens to them, it's probably best just to accept that it
> > does, because arguing that you can't possibly see how it could
> > possibly happen to them is only going to make you look churlish.
> >
> there's no need to jump the gun ;-) While, after rereading my post I
> kind of see where you've got the impression (looks like one or two words
> I meant to write are missing there), I did not mean that as an argument,
> just a point of view -- what I meant is that my brain does not
> process *why* it happens (tap while move), but that *does not* mean I
> don't accept that it happens for real people. There's a huge difference
> between knowing and understanding ;-)
>
> Hence why I also included the question about smart phones, because I
> believe that while interaction via touch-pad is indirect and relative
> (you don't actually see the screen under your finger; you move
> objects relative to where you start), the interaction is physically
> pretty much same -- when you move right it moves right (whatever it is
> you're moving -- on notebook usually cursor, on touch-screen usually
> some object), when you tap, it clicks exactly where you are...

To answer the question, I don't have the problem on smartphones, no. But
I don't think it's a very useful comparison. You tap a lot more and drag
a lot less on smartphones; tapping on something is the normal
interaction, and you usually drag only for some kind of gesture. There's
no cursor to move around. On a laptop, moving the cursor is probably
what you do the most of. Add to that that the technologies used in the
two aren't precisely the same and they're probably calibrated
differently, and...it's just not a very germane comparison, really.
--
Adam Williamson
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IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net

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Old 09-27-2012, 07:09 PM
Martin Sourada
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:39:27 +0200
Till Maas wrote:
> This has already manifested for me with the slow keys feature that GDM
> enables and makes one believe that the keyboard died.
>
Yes, this happened to me once as well... I was really bewildered as to
what to do. But I think with tapping it's the other way around than
you suggest -- when Fedora switched the default to disabled (I don't
recall which version it was), I really thought something was broken --
just like with the keyboard. No matter how much I tapped, nothing
happened. :-o

Now I know it's because tapping is disabled but at that time I thought
it was hardware feature, not something you disable in software
configuration. So until I learned what actually happened I really
thought something was broken and I didn't know what.

However, as I said earlier, I do not want to change the default
(again), both camps are probably equally numbered, and changes to
default that are not strongly supported (either by unbreakable
arguments or overwhelming numbers) are more disturbing than helpful. I
would just like to better understand the other camp. And Adam is doing
a pretty helpful job on that front ;-)

Cheers,
Martin
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Old 09-28-2012, 01:11 AM
Peter Hutterer
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 09:09:51PM +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:39:27 +0200
> Till Maas wrote:
> > This has already manifested for me with the slow keys feature that GDM
> > enables and makes one believe that the keyboard died.
> >
> Yes, this happened to me once as well... I was really bewildered as to
> what to do. But I think with tapping it's the other way around than
> you suggest -- when Fedora switched the default to disabled (I don't
> recall which version it was), I really thought something was broken --
> just like with the keyboard. No matter how much I tapped, nothing
> happened. :-o

disabled upstream in version 0.15.0 (June 2008), Fedora re-enabled it in
response to #439386 (which somehow got merged upstream again for 0.15.2),
but that was then finally disabled upstream with version 1.0 (Feb 2009). It
has been disabled since, except for the Apple touchpads which don't have
physical buttons.

Cheers,
Peter

> Now I know it's because tapping is disabled but at that time I thought
> it was hardware feature, not something you disable in software
> configuration. So until I learned what actually happened I really
> thought something was broken and I didn't know what.
>
> However, as I said earlier, I do not want to change the default
> (again), both camps are probably equally numbered, and changes to
> default that are not strongly supported (either by unbreakable
> arguments or overwhelming numbers) are more disturbing than helpful. I
> would just like to better understand the other camp. And Adam is doing
> a pretty helpful job on that front ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Martin

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Old 09-30-2012, 10:52 AM
Jarosław Górny
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

Hi,

Wiadomość napisana przez drago01 w dniu 27 wrz 2012, o godz. 17:42:

> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Till Maas <opensource@till.name> wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 02:47:47PM +0200, drago01 wrote:
>>> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Tomas Radej <tradej@redhat.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I don't expect much of a consensus to arise around this point, so I suggest
>>>> we check if in the main environments, the tap-to-click setting is easily
>>>> accessible and user-friendly. This state won't bother people who have
>>>> problems with tap-to-click, and won't pose problems for people who want to
>>>> have it on. I think that it's safe to assume that if the user installed
>>>> Fedora successfully, they realize that to enable clicking with their
>>>> touchpad, they need to go to Mouse/Touchpad settings and set it there in a
>>>> checkbox.
>>>
>>> The problem with your argument is that it can go with both directions.
>>> We can have it enabled by default and in case the user is annoyed by
>>> it he/she can turn it off.
>>
>> It is easier to enable something that is missing than to disable some
>> annoying behaviour whose cause is unknown. For example if you miss
>> tap-to-click, you know what you need to search for to enable it. If the
>> touchpad behaves strange because of accidental clicks, it is not that
>> clear whether this is a bad setting or a hardware or software defect.
>
> Not buying that. If you tap and nothing happens you may also think
> that something is broken "why does my touchpad not work" ... this is
> even more likely then your scenario.
> So this argument is flawed as well.

Let's maybe try to look at this from another perspective:
- tap to click is one of the features of a device class named touchpad, right?
- we are now setting this feature to *OFF* by default, right?

OK, so, are there any other devices, where we are turning off *some* or *all* of their features by default?
If the answer is NO - then tap to click should be also set to ON by default.
If the answer is YES - then we can try to think:

1. what are the reasons of having some features disabled by default?
2. does this particular feature match here?

This could help avoiding such controversies in the future.


regards,

--
Jarosław Górny
RHCE: 805008212834187



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Old 10-06-2012, 08:33 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

Martin Sourada wrote:
> I wonder if you have problem with touch-screen smart-phones as well,
> it's essentially the same thing as far as your fingers are concerned.

I don't know, I still use an old dumbphone with actual number buttons. :-)

Kevin Kofler

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