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Old 09-27-2012, 11:59 AM
Martin Sourada
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

Hi Adam,

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:54:07 -0700
Adam Williamson wrote:
> When lots of people who clearly aren't complete idiots tell you
> something happens to them, it's probably best just to accept that it
> does, because arguing that you can't possibly see how it could
> possibly happen to them is only going to make you look churlish.
>
there's no need to jump the gun ;-) While, after rereading my post I
kind of see where you've got the impression (looks like one or two words
I meant to write are missing there), I did not mean that as an argument,
just a point of view -- what I meant is that my brain does not
process *why* it happens (tap while move), but that *does not* mean I
don't accept that it happens for real people. There's a huge difference
between knowing and understanding ;-)

Hence why I also included the question about smart phones, because I
believe that while interaction via touch-pad is indirect and relative
(you don't actually see the screen under your finger; you move
objects relative to where you start), the interaction is physically
pretty much same -- when you move right it moves right (whatever it is
you're moving -- on notebook usually cursor, on touch-screen usually
some object), when you tap, it clicks exactly where you are...

Also some people seemed to misunderstand -- I do understand why you can
accidentally tap while typing (i.e. accidentally use touch-pad, while
using keyboard) and that's already handled by an existing
configuration option. The only thing I personally don't understand (but
accept that it happens) is that you can actually use touch-pad for
moving and meanwhile accidentally tap.

Martin

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Old 09-27-2012, 12:34 PM
Tomas Radej
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

Hi,

On 09/26/2012 08:51 PM, les wrote:
Please, you can enable this feature if you want it, and if your
touchpad handles it well, then good for you. Tapping is a "feature",
not a characteristic of touch pad use, and as such should be
accessible to those who want it, but not enabled by default. Just my
personal point of view. Regards, Les H


I agree with this. Unless your touchpad's buttons are broken (like mine,
but that's beside the point), you can move around the system, no
problem, and enable tap-to-click at will.


The question that comes with this is if the switch is easily accessible.
In Gnome it is (albeit it has a funny label - 'Enable mouse clicks with
touchpad' - what's wrong with 'Tap to click'?), but it appeared only
recently in XFCE. I don't know about other environments which we ship,
please submit your experience.


I don't expect much of a consensus to arise around this point, so I
suggest we check if in the main environments, the tap-to-click setting
is easily accessible and user-friendly. This state won't bother people
who have problems with tap-to-click, and won't pose problems for people
who want to have it on. I think that it's safe to assume that if the
user installed Fedora successfully, they realize that to enable clicking
with their touchpad, they need to go to Mouse/Touchpad settings and set
it there in a checkbox.


Tomas Radej

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Old 09-27-2012, 12:47 PM
drago01
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Tomas Radej <tradej@redhat.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> On 09/26/2012 08:51 PM, les wrote:
>>
>> Please, you can enable this feature if you want it, and if your touchpad
>> handles it well, then good for you. Tapping is a "feature", not a
>> characteristic of touch pad use, and as such should be accessible to those
>> who want it, but not enabled by default. Just my personal point of view.
>> Regards, Les H
>
>
> I agree with this. Unless your touchpad's buttons are broken (like mine, but
> that's beside the point), you can move around the system, no problem, and
> enable tap-to-click at will.
>
> The question that comes with this is if the switch is easily accessible. In
> Gnome it is (albeit it has a funny label - 'Enable mouse clicks with
> touchpad' - what's wrong with 'Tap to click'?), but it appeared only
> recently in XFCE. I don't know about other environments which we ship,
> please submit your experience.
>
> I don't expect much of a consensus to arise around this point, so I suggest
> we check if in the main environments, the tap-to-click setting is easily
> accessible and user-friendly. This state won't bother people who have
> problems with tap-to-click, and won't pose problems for people who want to
> have it on. I think that it's safe to assume that if the user installed
> Fedora successfully, they realize that to enable clicking with their
> touchpad, they need to go to Mouse/Touchpad settings and set it there in a
> checkbox.

The problem with your argument is that it can go with both directions.
We can have it enabled by default and in case the user is annoyed by
it he/she can turn it off.

I don't think that continuing this discussion makes much sense. There
are people who want/like it and there are some who do not ... unless
we can detect that (i.e read the users mind) we cannot find a solution
that works for everybody.
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Old 09-27-2012, 01:07 PM
Steve Morrissey
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

The problem with your argument is that it can go with both directions.

We can have it enabled by default and in case the user is annoyed by
it he/she can turn it off.
This is exactly right, there really is no right/wrong answer to this. For many it simply depends on what system you're using. If I'm using my Lenovo then I definitely don't want tap-to-click enabled because it has button both above and below the trackpad that work perfectly fine.*

If I'm using a newer-model MacBook I want tap-to-click turned on because the whole trackpad clicks which can be cumbersome/hard to press vs. simple tapping. If I'm using an old MacBook that actually has a physical trackpad button I want tap-to-click off because it's an old laptop and the trackpad is getting worn and picky when it comes to detecting input properly.

As others have pointed out this is actually one of the easiest to find settings and changing it is beyond trivial for even the most basic users. There is simply no good case to change defaults as there are too many variables at play.

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 7:47 AM, drago01 <drago01@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Tomas Radej <tradej@redhat.com> wrote:

> Hi,

>

>

> On 09/26/2012 08:51 PM, les wrote:

>>

>> Please, you can enable this feature if you want it, and if your touchpad

>> handles it well, then good for you. Tapping is a "feature", not a

>> characteristic of touch pad use, and as such should be accessible to those

>> who want it, but not enabled by default. Just my personal point of view.

>> Regards, Les H

>

>

> I agree with this. Unless your touchpad's buttons are broken (like mine, but

> that's beside the point), you can move around the system, no problem, and

> enable tap-to-click at will.

>

> The question that comes with this is if the switch is easily accessible. In

> Gnome it is (albeit it has a funny label - 'Enable mouse clicks with

> touchpad' - what's wrong with 'Tap to click'?), but it appeared only

> recently in XFCE. I don't know about other environments which we ship,

> please submit your experience.

>

> I don't expect much of a consensus to arise around this point, so I suggest

> we check if in the main environments, the tap-to-click setting is easily

> accessible and user-friendly. This state won't bother people who have

> problems with tap-to-click, and won't pose problems for people who want to

> have it on. I think that it's safe to assume that if the user installed

> Fedora successfully, they realize that to enable clicking with their

> touchpad, they need to go to Mouse/Touchpad settings and set it there in a

> checkbox.



The problem with your argument is that it can go with both directions.

We can have it enabled by default and in case the user is annoyed by

it he/she can turn it off.



I don't think that continuing this discussion makes much sense. There

are people who want/like it and there are some who do not ... unless

we can detect that (i.e read the users mind) we cannot find a solution

that works for everybody.

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Old 09-27-2012, 01:27 PM
Tomas Radej
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On 09/27/2012 03:07 PM, Steve Morrissey wrote:

The problem with your argument is that it can go with both directions.
We can have it enabled by default and in case the user is annoyed by
it he/she can turn it off.


This is exactly right, there really is no right/wrong answer to this. For
many it simply depends on what system you're using. If I'm using my Lenovo
then I definitely don't want tap-to-click enabled because it has button
both above and below the trackpad that work perfectly fine.


I know, right, I should have specified that I suggest that because it's
the status quo.


TR

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Old 09-27-2012, 03:39 PM
Till Maas
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 02:47:47PM +0200, drago01 wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Tomas Radej <tradej@redhat.com> wrote:

> > I don't expect much of a consensus to arise around this point, so I suggest
> > we check if in the main environments, the tap-to-click setting is easily
> > accessible and user-friendly. This state won't bother people who have
> > problems with tap-to-click, and won't pose problems for people who want to
> > have it on. I think that it's safe to assume that if the user installed
> > Fedora successfully, they realize that to enable clicking with their
> > touchpad, they need to go to Mouse/Touchpad settings and set it there in a
> > checkbox.
>
> The problem with your argument is that it can go with both directions.
> We can have it enabled by default and in case the user is annoyed by
> it he/she can turn it off.

It is easier to enable something that is missing than to disable some
annoying behaviour whose cause is unknown. For example if you miss
tap-to-click, you know what you need to search for to enable it. If the
touchpad behaves strange because of accidental clicks, it is not that
clear whether this is a bad setting or a hardware or software defect.

This has already manifested for me with the slow keys feature that GDM
enables and makes one believe that the keyboard died.

Regards
Till
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Old 09-27-2012, 03:42 PM
drago01
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Till Maas <opensource@till.name> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 02:47:47PM +0200, drago01 wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Tomas Radej <tradej@redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> > I don't expect much of a consensus to arise around this point, so I suggest
>> > we check if in the main environments, the tap-to-click setting is easily
>> > accessible and user-friendly. This state won't bother people who have
>> > problems with tap-to-click, and won't pose problems for people who want to
>> > have it on. I think that it's safe to assume that if the user installed
>> > Fedora successfully, they realize that to enable clicking with their
>> > touchpad, they need to go to Mouse/Touchpad settings and set it there in a
>> > checkbox.
>>
>> The problem with your argument is that it can go with both directions.
>> We can have it enabled by default and in case the user is annoyed by
>> it he/she can turn it off.
>
> It is easier to enable something that is missing than to disable some
> annoying behaviour whose cause is unknown. For example if you miss
> tap-to-click, you know what you need to search for to enable it. If the
> touchpad behaves strange because of accidental clicks, it is not that
> clear whether this is a bad setting or a hardware or software defect.

Not buying that. If you tap and nothing happens you may also think
that something is broken "why does my touchpad not work" ... this is
even more likely then your scenario.
So this argument is flawed as well.
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Old 09-27-2012, 03:49 PM
Steve Morrissey
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:42 AM, drago01 <drago01@gmail.com> wrote:


Not buying that. If you tap and nothing happens you may also think

that something is broken "why does my touchpad not work" ... this is

even more likely then your scenario.

So this argument is flawed as well.



But was tap to click ever enabled by default in Fedora then suddenly switched to disabled? If the default has always been disabled, why would a user have the expectation that tapping is broken when it was never a default in the first place? Moreover, a simple google of "fedora tap to click" tells you exactly how to enable it. This discussion is creating a problem where there isn't one. Tap to click is also disabled in OS X by default and I think Mac users are able to figure it out*just fine. If they can find the setting, Fedora users can as well

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Old 09-27-2012, 04:09 PM
Till Maas
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 05:42:47PM +0200, drago01 wrote:

> Not buying that. If you tap and nothing happens you may also think
> that something is broken "why does my touchpad not work" ... this is
> even more likely then your scenario.
> So this argument is flawed as well.

You know more that "it is broken". You know then the tap-to-click
feature is missing and have a clear and reproducible error report "I tap
on the touchpad and the click is not noticed". It is a lot easier to
notice that something is missing and to describe it than to notice that
something is there that is sometimes causing trouble.

Regards
Till
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Old 09-27-2012, 05:31 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 05:42:47PM +0200, drago01 wrote:

> Not buying that. If you tap and nothing happens you may also think
> that something is broken "why does my touchpad not work" ... this is
> even more likely then your scenario.
> So this argument is flawed as well.

The default isn't being changed, so this entire discussion is flawed.

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