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Old 04-04-2008, 09:48 AM
Michael Schwendt
 
Default bugzilla triage madness :-/

Since yesterday, I've been flooded with easily over hundred bugzilla
mails. Someone is active setting tickets to NEEDINFO without any efforts
to verify that an issue is fixed. That activity has also reached my
tickets about conflicts and unowned directories. It is beyond my time to
process such a high number of tickets now after packagers ignored them for
a long time. In several cases I could have fixed the problems myself but
the lame acls don't permit that.

If you want to receive less tickets in the future, mission
accomplished. Reporting bugs is among the most thankless tasks in Fedora
Land. When I enter something in bugzilla, I want to reach humans, not mad
robots, who are unable to understand a ticket and who close it just for
fun. The person or script who touches my tickets and threatens with
closing them after 30 days is successful in telling me that my bug reports
are not appreciated. Thank you. :-/

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Old 04-04-2008, 11:12 AM
Andrew Farris
 
Default bugzilla triage madness :-/

Michael Schwendt wrote:

Since yesterday, I've been flooded with easily over hundred bugzilla
mails. Someone is active setting tickets to NEEDINFO without any efforts
to verify that an issue is fixed. That activity has also reached my
tickets about conflicts and unowned directories. It is beyond my time to
process such a high number of tickets now after packagers ignored them for
a long time. In several cases I could have fixed the problems myself but
the lame acls don't permit that.

If you want to receive less tickets in the future, mission
accomplished. Reporting bugs is among the most thankless tasks in Fedora
Land. When I enter something in bugzilla, I want to reach humans, not mad
robots, who are unable to understand a ticket and who close it just for
fun. The person or script who touches my tickets and threatens with
closing them after 30 days is successful in telling me that my bug reports
are not appreciated. Thank you. :-/


FYI, that was a bot running on behalf of the bug triage project and (as I and
others understood it) was not supposed to be flooding bugs in rawhide but only
in older releases... to weed out stale and forgotten bugs. Its a good thing,
though partially seems to have gone awry at the moment.


--
Andrew Farris <lordmorgul@gmail.com> www.lordmorgul.net
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revoked key 0xC99B1DF3 no longer used
No one now has, and no one will ever again get, the big picture. - Daniel Geer
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Old 04-04-2008, 12:03 PM
Michael Schwendt
 
Default bugzilla triage madness :-/

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 04:12:42 -0700, Andrew Farris wrote:

> FYI, that was a bot running on behalf of the bug triage project and (as I and
> others understood it) was not supposed to be flooding bugs in rawhide but only
> in older releases... to weed out stale and forgotten bugs. Its a good thing,
> though partially seems to have gone awry at the moment.

With all due respect, this is a lame excuse IMO. To find out *why* some
tickets are ignored would be interesting. Not just threaten to close them
and effectively hide the issues under the carpet. The bot did exactly the
wrong thing, because if the NEEDINFO is ignored, too, the bugs remain
"stale and forgotten". You would not even learn if they are assigned to
wrong people. That's a belated April Fool's joke.

| Based on the date this bug was created, it appears to have been reported
| against rawhide during the development of a Fedora release that is no
| longer maintained.

What do I care? When I filed the bug, the product was fresh and maintained,
wasn't it? But more than a year later I'm no longer willing to spend time
on the same issues without a single sign of life from the package owner.

| If you can reproduce this bug in a maintained Fedora version (7, 8, or
| rawhide), please change this bug to the respective version and change
| the status to ASSIGNED.

Why? So I'm kept busy or what? What is needed is a method to guarantee
that the assignee handles the ticket actually.

There are plenty of tickets where I even posted patches (which makes
the tickets "EasyFix" cases). E.g. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/233833

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Old 04-04-2008, 12:41 PM
Andrew Farris
 
Default bugzilla triage madness :-/

Michael Schwendt wrote:

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 04:12:42 -0700, Andrew Farris wrote:

FYI, that was a bot running on behalf of the bug triage project and (as I and
others understood it) was not supposed to be flooding bugs in rawhide but only
in older releases... to weed out stale and forgotten bugs. Its a good thing,
though partially seems to have gone awry at the moment.


With all due respect, this is a lame excuse IMO. To find out *why* some
tickets are ignored would be interesting. Not just threaten to close them
and effectively hide the issues under the carpet. The bot did exactly the
wrong thing, because if the NEEDINFO is ignored, too, the bugs remain
"stale and forgotten". You would not even learn if they are assigned to
wrong people. That's a belated April Fool's joke.


But what could be gained from trying to solve bugs in software that is long
modified to be unrecognizable from the state it was in then... the bugs were
changed to NEEDINFO so that the reporters can then go back and indicate whether
the bug is still relevant to anyone/them. Its important to know because its
pointless for someone to look at it NOW that it was forgotten (however sad that
is, and I agree its sad). A pragmatic point of view is necessary here; life and
software development aren't always as we'd like them to be.



| Based on the date this bug was created, it appears to have been reported
| against rawhide during the development of a Fedora release that is no
| longer maintained.

What do I care? When I filed the bug, the product was fresh and maintained,
wasn't it? But more than a year later I'm no longer willing to spend time
on the same issues without a single sign of life from the package owner.


You don't need to do anything if its not something that still matters, and
you're not expected to. But why would you begrudge the developers a cleaner
bugzilla if that doesn't matter anymore? If you don't care to spend time on it
now do you really think anyone needs to?



| If you can reproduce this bug in a maintained Fedora version (7, 8, or
| rawhide), please change this bug to the respective version and change
| the status to ASSIGNED.

Why? So I'm kept busy or what? What is needed is a method to guarantee
that the assignee handles the ticket actually.


That is precisely what the people involved with the bug triage effort are trying
to do... but one cannot get to point B without traversing from point A, and bugs
that are old, stale, forgotten, no longer needing to be maintained, etc, need to
be closed or otherwise marked as such. Its regrettable that some bugs got left
behind when they did, but a bug filed against 'rawhide' in 2006 is obviously
obselete and you know this.


The past is now passed... bugs once forgotten should be forgotten (closed). And
maybe in the future they won't get forgotten.


--
Andrew Farris <lordmorgul@gmail.com> www.lordmorgul.net
gpg 0x8300BF29 fingerprint 071D FFE0 4CBC 13FC 7DEB 5BD5 5F89 8E1B 8300 BF29
revoked key 0xC99B1DF3 no longer used
No one now has, and no one will ever again get, the big picture. - Daniel Geer
---- ----

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Old 04-04-2008, 01:05 PM
Michael Schwendt
 
Default bugzilla triage madness :-/

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 05:41:58 -0700, Andrew Farris wrote:

> But what could be gained from trying to solve bugs in software that is long
> modified to be unrecognizable from the state it was in then...

You presume too much. The bot didn't examine whether the software/pkg
changed too much. The bot mass-changed tickets based on age/product.

> the bugs were
> changed to NEEDINFO so that the reporters can then go back and indicate whether
> the bug is still relevant to anyone/them.

This particular reporter won't "go back". It is beyond my time. I've spent
time on reporting the bugs, patches, I've been available to give feedback
if need be. The tickets have been ignored. Now it's too late to expect me
to spend time on the same issues again. Why should I? It's not the first
time somebody tries to "clean up bugzilla" only to do it again a few
months later when the next tickets become "too old".

Listen, I don't want to argue with you. I've pointed out how I feel about
it and move on. For me, experience with bugzilla.redhat.com has become
worse.

> You don't need to do anything if its not something that still matters, and
> you're not expected to. But why would you begrudge the developers a cleaner
> bugzilla if that doesn't matter anymore? If you don't care to spend time on it
> now do you really think anyone needs to?

See above. Can't be so hard to understand.

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Old 04-04-2008, 02:05 PM
"Arthur Pemberton"
 
Default bugzilla triage madness :-/

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Michael Schwendt <mschwendt@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 05:41:58 -0700, Andrew Farris wrote:
>
> > But what could be gained from trying to solve bugs in software that is long
> > modified to be unrecognizable from the state it was in then...
>
> You presume too much. The bot didn't examine whether the software/pkg
> changed too much. The bot mass-changed tickets based on age/product.

How many email did you receive? Now multiply that by some small number
to accommodate for others like yourself... say 30. Now let say it
takes a person 5 mins to determine if bug against package foobar in
fc6 still exists in f8., so that's 150 * (num email you got). That's
easily a 24 man hours.

I received those email too. My ownly complaint was that I was somewhat
offended that Bugzilla felt the need to apologize to me. As if it
thought I was sensitive enough to get all anxious about the matter. I
simply verified that the issue existed in F8 and acted accordingly.

Also, there was a link to the wiki on how to join the Bug Triage
program to make things go a bit faster/

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Old 04-04-2008, 03:32 PM
"Colin Walters"
 
Default bugzilla triage madness :-/

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 8:03 AM, Michael Schwendt <mschwendt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There are plenty of tickets where I even posted patches (which makes
> the tickets "EasyFix" cases). E.g. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/233833

For that kind of stuff, honestly I would just apply it. Fedora's
processes shouldn't block skilled people from doing good work.

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Old 04-04-2008, 04:51 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default bugzilla triage madness :-/

Colin Walters wrote:

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 8:03 AM, Michael Schwendt <mschwendt@gmail.com> wrote:

There are plenty of tickets where I even posted patches (which makes
the tickets "EasyFix" cases). E.g. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/233833


For that kind of stuff, honestly I would just apply it. Fedora's
processes shouldn't block skilled people from doing good work.


Right. If you have commit access and the fixes are simple and obvious
just go ahead and do it.


Rahul

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Old 04-04-2008, 04:54 PM
Michael Schwendt
 
Default bugzilla triage madness :-/

On Fri, 4 Apr 2008 11:32:38 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 8:03 AM, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> >
> > There are plenty of tickets where I even posted patches (which makes
> > the tickets "EasyFix" cases). E.g. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/233833
>
> For that kind of stuff, honestly I would just apply it. Fedora's
> processes shouldn't block skilled people from doing good work.

As I've pointed out, commit access is restricted for many many many
packages. And yes, where I could commit I've done that (albeit without
requesting a build but with a good comment), and I haven't had a single
maintainer yell at me.

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Old 04-04-2008, 05:13 PM
"Colin Walters"
 
Default bugzilla triage madness :-/

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 12:54 PM, Michael Schwendt <mschwendt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As I've pointed out, commit access is restricted for many many many
> packages. And yes, where I could commit I've done that (albeit without
> requesting a build but with a good comment), and I haven't had a single
> maintainer yell at me.

Thoughts:

* Create a group "janitors" in the FAS that has global commit access
* Anyone who's had a Fedora account (for example) > 6mo can request
janitor access
* The janitor access request is sent to the list of existing janitors
and voted on
* A janitor is only supposed to commit "cleanups", which is a fuzzy
definition but if
for example you're patching the upstream source it's probably going too far

"Packaging Ninja Squad" might be a sexier name.

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