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Old 09-30-2011, 10:00 AM
Daniel Drake
 
Default GNOME 3 - font point sizes now scaled?

Hi,

I'm working on bringing OLPC up-to-date with all the great efforts
with GNOME 3, systemd, etc.

On the OLPC XO laptops we have quite a strange screen - it is small
(152mm x 114mm) but very high resolution (1200x900 i.e. 201 dots per
inch).

Previously, on Fedora 14, we had to adjust the default GNOME font
sizes since they didn't look right on the screen (I think they were
too big). Now I'm looking at applying the same set of customisations
to Fedora 16 since the default fonts are uncomfortably small on our
display.

However, I've noticed a fundamental difference in the sizing of fonts
between Fedora 14 and Fedora 16. This is visible with a simple
experiment:

1. Open gedit
2. Change document font size to Sans 72
3. Write the capital letter "I" and measure the height of the printed
character with a ruler

I do this on two laptops side by side, one running Fedora 14 and the
other running Fedora 16.
On F14 the height of the I character is 1.9cm, and on Fedora 16 it is
0.9cm. That is quite a difference.

On both laptops, xdpyinfo correctly prints the screen resolution, DPI
and display size, which have not changed.

>From a typographic standpoint, F14 seems to be correct here. As 1pt is
(approx) 1/72 of an inch, size 72 should produce characters of around
1 inch in size - and 1.9cm (the F14 measurement) is about an inch.

Also, Cantarell seems to play by its own rules. On F16, the "I" in
Cantarell 72 is 0.8cm, not too different from Sans 72, but the
difference between Sans 11 and Cantarell 11 is more significant - at
size 11, Cantarell is tiny.

Can anyone help me understand this behaviour?

Thanks,
Daniel
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Old 09-30-2011, 11:09 AM
Felix Miata
 
Default GNOME 3 - font point sizes now scaled?

On 2011/09/30 11:00 (GMT+0100) Daniel Drake composed:

> I'm working on bringing OLPC up-to-date with all the great efforts
> with GNOME 3, systemd, etc.

> On the OLPC XO laptops we have quite a strange screen - it is small
> (152mm x 114mm) but very high resolution (1200x900 i.e. 201 dots per
> inch).

> Previously, on Fedora 14, we had to adjust the default GNOME font
> sizes since they didn't look right on the screen (I think they were
> too big). Now I'm looking at applying the same set of customisations
> to Fedora 16 since the default fonts are uncomfortably small on our
> display.

> However, I've noticed a fundamental difference in the sizing of fonts
> between Fedora 14 and Fedora 16. This is visible with a simple
> experiment:

> 1. Open gedit
> 2. Change document font size to Sans 72
> 3. Write the capital letter "I" and measure the height of the printed
> character with a ruler

> I do this on two laptops side by side, one running Fedora 14 and the
> other running Fedora 16.
> On F14 the height of the I character is 1.9cm, and on Fedora 16 it is
> 0.9cm. That is quite a difference.

> On both laptops, xdpyinfo correctly prints the screen resolution, DPI
> and display size, which have not changed.

>> From a typographic standpoint, F14 seems to be correct here. As 1pt is
> (approx) 1/72 of an inch, size 72 should produce characters of around
> 1 inch in size - and 1.9cm (the F14 measurement) is about an inch.

> Also, Cantarell seems to play by its own rules. On F16, the "I" in
> Cantarell 72 is 0.8cm, not too different from Sans 72, but the
> difference between Sans 11 and Cantarell 11 is more significant - at
> size 11, Cantarell is tiny.

> Can anyone help me understand this behaviour?

Sounds to me like your F14 is using correct DPI while your F16 is forced to
96. Does your F14 have /etc/X11/xorg.conf file or a non-empty
/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/?

Can you try opening Firefox 3.x with hidden (about:config) pref
layout.css.dpi set to 0, and again set to 201, and loading
http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/dpi-screen-window.html to see what DPI it reports?
Same in Konqueror? (other/newer browsers lock to 96).
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Old 09-30-2011, 12:14 PM
Daniel Drake
 
Default GNOME 3 - font point sizes now scaled?

On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Sounds to me like your F14 is using correct DPI while your F16 is forced to
> 96. Does your F14 have /etc/X11/xorg.conf file or a non-empty
> /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/?

Bad DPI could certainly be a cause. However, xdpyinfo reports the
correct value (201) on both platforms.

We use a config file in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d which specifies
DisplaySize - needed for the correct DPI value to be computed.

> Can you try opening Firefox 3.x with hidden (about:config) pref
> layout.css.dpi set to 0, and again set to 201, and loading
> http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/dpi-screen-window.html to see what DPI it reports?
> Same in Konqueror? (other/newer browsers lock to 96).

Sure, I'll try this.
Do I run these tests on F14 or F16?
(do you really mean Firefox 3.x?)

cheers
Daniel
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Old 09-30-2011, 12:50 PM
Felix Miata
 
Default GNOME 3 - font point sizes now scaled?

On 2011/09/30 13:14 (GMT+0100) Daniel Drake composed:

> Felix Miata wrote:

>> Sounds to me like your F14 is using correct DPI while your F16 is forced to
>> 96. Does your F14 have /etc/X11/xorg.conf file or a non-empty
>> /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/?

> Bad DPI could certainly be a cause. However, xdpyinfo reports the
> correct value (201) on both platforms.

There is actually a possibility for 3 different DPIs to be recognized by
various apps on a single X desktop. xdpyinfo only reports one of the 3, which
is why I asked to open that URL in Firefox.

> We use a config file in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d which specifies
> DisplaySize - needed for the correct DPI value to be computed.

Check if your F14 /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/ has valid device and screen specified
while your F16 does not. I think post-F14 Xorg behavior in this regard and/or
default files and/or docs about them changed.

>> Can you try opening Firefox 3.x with hidden (about:config) pref
>> layout.css.dpi set to 0, and again set to 201, and loading
>> http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/dpi-screen-window.html to see what DPI it reports?
>> Same in Konqueror? (other/newer browsers lock to 96).

> Sure, I'll try this.
> Do I run these tests on F14 or F16?

Both, if device and screen in xorg.conf.d/ aren't your F16 problem, otherwise
neither. Might be easier to do in F14 unless you're familiar with using the
mozilla.org static binaries. Oh, and don't use your regular profile(s). Start
FF with -profilemanager and create a new one to use. I think you can damage
your 4/5/6/7 profile by using it for an older version and then going back to
4/5/6/7. I'm not sure which of the post-3.x versions is responsible for the
to/fro incompatibility. Or else backup first, run the tests, then restore.

> (do you really mean Firefox 3.x?)

"other/newer browsers lock to 96", which means they will only report 96 (or
maybe 192?, since you have an actual 201 DPI) unless you've altered
layout.css.devPixelsPerPx, in which case desktop DPI & reported DPI won't
likely correlate positively.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Old 09-30-2011, 01:47 PM
"Nicolas Mailhot"
 
Default GNOME 3 - font point sizes now scaled?

Le Ven 30 septembre 2011 12:00, Daniel Drake a écrit :

> Can anyone help me understand this behaviour?

<rant>

There's nothing to understand – this is a new major GNOME release, with
developers that know better than everyone else, and solve problems by ignoring
past experience and hardcoding their own preferences

Someone Gnome-side decided to not trust xorg dpi and added a new heuristic to
'correct' it (the last time this occurred, it took several years of user
complains before it was reverted; I'm quite sure there will be a new round of
excuses why it is a good idea to try to second-guess xorg hardware detection
instead of fixing the eventual xorg bugs. What it boils down to is some people
GNOME-side have less work to configure their hardware – around which the new
heuristic has been constructed — everyone else gets weird unwelcome
side-effects, and apps using other toolkits won't agree on what font sizes
mean)

Another someone decided DejaVu (what you call Sans) was too old and tired, and
preempted it with a new unfinished font. It seems people do not understand UI
fonts are there to display text, and a font people do not notice at all is a
good UI font. Mind you, Cantarell is a nice free and open font, but did it
really need showing down people's throats to be advertised? Especially
considering its coverage is too small to support a lot of languages, and its
metric is too different from the available fall-back fonts for the fall-backs
to be graceful?

There's nothing to do apart from waiting for enough complains to pile up the
people in charge get past their reality denial phase.
</rant>

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Old 09-30-2011, 01:59 PM
Daniel Drake
 
Default GNOME 3 - font point sizes now scaled?

On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Nicolas Mailhot
<nicolas.mailhot@laposte.net> wrote:
> Someone Gnome-side decided to not trust xorg dpi and added a new heuristic to
> 'correct' it

I know this is part of a rant.. but any chance you could quantify that
point with a link to a commit, blog post, mailing list discussion,
something like that?

cheers
Daniel
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Old 09-30-2011, 02:35 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default GNOME 3 - font point sizes now scaled?

On Fri, 2011-09-30 at 15:47 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:

>
> There's nothing to do apart from waiting for enough complains to pile up the
> people in charge get past their reality denial phase.
> </rant>

This thread could have let to something constructive... but not so much
anymore now, I guess. Good going, getting down to the rant level in less
than 10 mails :-(

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Old 09-30-2011, 03:09 PM
Peter Robinson
 
Default GNOME 3 - font point sizes now scaled?

On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Matthias Clasen <mclasen@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-09-30 at 15:47 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>
>>
>> There's nothing to do apart from waiting for enough complains to pile up the
>> people in charge get past their reality denial phase.
>> </rant>
>
> This thread could have let to something constructive... but not so much
> anymore now, I guess. Good going, getting down to the rant level in less
> than 10 mails :-(

There's no reason it can't be recovered, Matthias can you provide an
explanation of the changes and the rationale behind them?

Peter
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Old 09-30-2011, 04:12 PM
Felix Miata
 
Default GNOME 3 - font point sizes now scaled?

On 2011/09/30 11:09 (GMT-0400) Peter Robinson composed:

> can you provide an
> explanation of the changes and the rationale behind them?

I think it's become clear over the past couple of years that the Gnome and
KDE devs have decided they're controlling a playgound rather than software
for users to be productive with, expecting those who don't like their silly
power sapping toys to goto XFCE, LXDE or elsewhere to absolve themselves of
the effects of naive and anarchist devs.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Old 09-30-2011, 04:29 PM
Jos Vos
 
Default GNOME 3 - font point sizes now scaled?

On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 12:12:45PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> I think it's become clear over the past couple of years that the Gnome and
> KDE devs have decided they're controlling a playgound rather than software
> for users to be productive with, expecting those who don't like their silly
> power sapping toys to goto XFCE, LXDE or elsewhere to absolve themselves of
> the effects of naive and anarchist devs.

+1

Well said...

/me being a pretty happy Xfce user since F15.

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