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Old 09-19-2011, 11:46 AM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default how to have yum prefer one dependency over others

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 01:00:35PM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > Debian policy is that any virtual dependencies must also have an
> > explicit dependency. In your case it would be something like
> >
> > Requires: phonon-backend-gstreamer | phonon-backend
>
> Unfortunately, RPM does not support this idiom.

I know. I'm just pointing out that this is a problem that's been solved
in the past.

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Old 09-19-2011, 03:46 PM
"tim.lauridsen@gmail.com"
 
Default how to have yum prefer one dependency over others

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@chello.at> wrote:
> Matthew Garrett wrote:
>> Debian policy is that any virtual dependencies must also have an
>> explicit dependency. In your case it would be something like
>>
>> Requires: phonon-backend-gstreamer | phonon-backend
>
> Unfortunately, RPM does not support this idiom.
>
<trolling>
Why don't you just replace rpm, with deb too, while you are at it ?
</trolling>
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Old 09-19-2011, 03:51 PM
Matyas Selmeci
 
Default how to have yum prefer one dependency over others

Kevin Kofler wrote on Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 01:02:26PM +0200:
> Michael Schroeder wrote:
> > Sounds like you want weak dependencies (i.e. "Suggests" et al).
>
> In this case, I think disjunctive dependencies (default | virtual), as
> Matthew Garrett pointed out, are the right solution, not soft dependencies
> (though those would also be nice).
>
> Kevin Kofler
Functionally speaking, what is the difference between a soft dependency
and a disjunctive dependency? How can you satisfy a soft dependency if
you don't know what virtual dependency it is being used to provide?

-Matyas

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Old 09-19-2011, 04:00 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default how to have yum prefer one dependency over others

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:51:26AM -0500, Matyas Selmeci wrote:
> Kevin Kofler wrote on Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 01:02:26PM +0200:
> > Michael Schroeder wrote:
> > > Sounds like you want weak dependencies (i.e. "Suggests" et al).
> >
> > In this case, I think disjunctive dependencies (default | virtual), as
> > Matthew Garrett pointed out, are the right solution, not soft dependencies
> > (though those would also be nice).
> >
> > Kevin Kofler
> Functionally speaking, what is the difference between a soft dependency
> and a disjunctive dependency? How can you satisfy a soft dependency if
> you don't know what virtual dependency it is being used to provide?

If we have:

Requires: phonon-backend
Suggests: phonon-backend-gstreamer

What would you expect the outcome to be on a system that has
phonon-backend-xine? I'd have thought that phonon-backend-gstreamer
would get installed, even if you can later remove it. That's not the
desired outcome.

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Old 09-19-2011, 04:05 PM
Matyas Selmeci
 
Default how to have yum prefer one dependency over others

Matthew Garrett wrote on Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 05:00:28PM +0100:
> On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:51:26AM -0500, Matyas Selmeci wrote:
> > Kevin Kofler wrote on Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 01:02:26PM +0200:
> > > Michael Schroeder wrote:
> > > > Sounds like you want weak dependencies (i.e. "Suggests" et al).
> > >
> > > In this case, I think disjunctive dependencies (default | virtual), as
> > > Matthew Garrett pointed out, are the right solution, not soft dependencies
> > > (though those would also be nice).
> > >
> > > Kevin Kofler
> > Functionally speaking, what is the difference between a soft dependency
> > and a disjunctive dependency? How can you satisfy a soft dependency if
> > you don't know what virtual dependency it is being used to provide?
>
> If we have:
>
> Requires: phonon-backend
> Suggests: phonon-backend-gstreamer
>
> What would you expect the outcome to be on a system that has
> phonon-backend-xine? I'd have thought that phonon-backend-gstreamer
> would get installed, even if you can later remove it. That's not the
> desired outcome.

I see. So 'Suggests' means it gets automatically installed (unless it
explicitly conflicts with something already install I presume?), but
can be removed without breaking the package it was brought in for
(unless no other package provides the phonon-backend dependency).
Do I have that right?

-Matyas

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Old 09-19-2011, 04:08 PM
"Richard W.M. Jones"
 
Default how to have yum prefer one dependency over others

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:05:47AM -0500, Matyas Selmeci wrote:
> Matthew Garrett wrote on Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 05:00:28PM +0100:
> > On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:51:26AM -0500, Matyas Selmeci wrote:
> > > Kevin Kofler wrote on Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 01:02:26PM +0200:
> > > > Michael Schroeder wrote:
> > > > > Sounds like you want weak dependencies (i.e. "Suggests" et al).
> > > >
> > > > In this case, I think disjunctive dependencies (default | virtual), as
> > > > Matthew Garrett pointed out, are the right solution, not soft dependencies
> > > > (though those would also be nice).
> > > >
> > > > Kevin Kofler
> > > Functionally speaking, what is the difference between a soft dependency
> > > and a disjunctive dependency? How can you satisfy a soft dependency if
> > > you don't know what virtual dependency it is being used to provide?
> >
> > If we have:
> >
> > Requires: phonon-backend
> > Suggests: phonon-backend-gstreamer
> >
> > What would you expect the outcome to be on a system that has
> > phonon-backend-xine? I'd have thought that phonon-backend-gstreamer
> > would get installed, even if you can later remove it. That's not the
> > desired outcome.
>
> I see. So 'Suggests' means it gets automatically installed (unless it
> explicitly conflicts with something already install I presume?), but
> can be removed without breaking the package it was brought in for
> (unless no other package provides the phonon-backend dependency).
> Do I have that right?

In Debian, 'Suggests', 'Recommends' etc have very specific meanings.
See in particular section 7.2 here:

http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html

RPM of course doesn't have anything except hard requirements.

Rich.

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Old 09-19-2011, 04:11 PM
drago01
 
Default how to have yum prefer one dependency over others

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 5:46 PM, tim.lauridsen@gmail.com
<tim.lauridsen@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@chello.at> wrote:
>> Matthew Garrett wrote:
>>> Debian policy is that any virtual dependencies must also have an
>>> explicit dependency. In your case it would be something like
>>>
>>> Requires: phonon-backend-gstreamer | phonon-backend
>>
>> Unfortunately, RPM does not support this idiom.
>>
> <trolling>
> Why don't you just replace rpm, with deb too, while you are at it ?
> </trolling>

Well as long as the tools we are talking about
1) Do use rpm
2) Do valid dependency resolution (i.e not --nodeps or something like that)

I don't see why we shouldn't allow them.

lets say

yum install foo does:
foo, bar1, baz1

$nonyumtool install foo does:
foo, bar2, baz2

Both bar1/baz1 and bar2/baz2 are valid deps for foo (both statify the
dependency).

So why would it matter what in the end?
If that causes "bugs" then either of the deps are wrong (and the
packages in question ought to be fixed).

So I don't get what this flamefest is all about ...
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Old 09-19-2011, 04:25 PM
Michael Schroeder
 
Default how to have yum prefer one dependency over others

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:05:47AM -0500, Matyas Selmeci wrote:
> I see. So 'Suggests' means it gets automatically installed (unless it
> explicitly conflicts with something already install I presume?), but
> can be removed without breaking the package it was brought in for
> (unless no other package provides the phonon-backend dependency).
> Do I have that right?

Actually 'Recommends' should be used when you want automatic
installation. Suggests is more a hint for the user.
Depsolvers often also use it to break ambiguities, so when
multiple packages provide some dependency, the suggested one
is chosen.

Cheers,
Michael.

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Old 09-19-2011, 04:41 PM
Jef Spaleta
 
Default how to have yum prefer one dependency over others

On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@chello.at> wrote:

Richard Hughes wrote:

> Naa, try the version of zif in F16, or grab the latest upstream SRPM

> and rebuild it for f15 from here:

> http://people.freedesktop.org/~hughsient/fedora/15/SRPMS/



I submitted a Koji scratch build of zif-0.2.4-0.78.20110918git for F15:

http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=3359296


Hey, Kevin and Richard

I've installed this zif from koji and I'm still not able to complete a "zif
install paprefs" transaction with realworld F15 configured public repository set, whereas all the yum based tools: yum. repoquery etc... complete as expected.

Here is what yum repolist returns
*

repo id************************************************ * repo name********************************************** ********************* status
adobe-linux-i386**************************************** Adobe Systems Incorporated************************************** **************** 18

fedora******************************************** ****** Fedora 15 - x86_64******************************************** ************** 24,085
google-musicmanager************************************* google-musicmanager************************************** ************************ 1

google-talkplugin*************************************** google-talkplugin**************************************** ************************ 1
openshift-express*************************************** Openshift-express******************************************* ********************* 1

rpmfusion-free****************************************** RPM Fusion for Fedora 15 - Free********************************************** ** 438
rpmfusion-free-updates********************************** RPM Fusion for Fedora 15 - Free - Updates************************************** 287

rpmfusion-nonfree*************************************** RPM Fusion for Fedora 15 - Nonfree******************************************* ** 179
rpmfusion-nonfree-updates******************************* RPM Fusion for Fedora 15 - Nonfree - Updates*********************************** 120

updates******************************************* ****** Fedora 15 - x86_64 - Updates******************************************* ****** 6,408
updates-testing***************************************** Fedora 15 - x86_64 - Test Updates******************************************* * 1,239




Guys what's going on with zif?

-jef

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Old 09-19-2011, 04:51 PM
Doug Ledford
 
Default how to have yum prefer one dependency over others

----- Original Message -----
> On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:51:26AM -0500, Matyas Selmeci wrote:
> > Kevin Kofler wrote on Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 01:02:26PM +0200:
> > > Michael Schroeder wrote:
> > > > Sounds like you want weak dependencies (i.e. "Suggests" et al).
> > >
> > > In this case, I think disjunctive dependencies (default |
> > > virtual), as
> > > Matthew Garrett pointed out, are the right solution, not soft
> > > dependencies
> > > (though those would also be nice).
> > >
> > > Kevin Kofler
> > Functionally speaking, what is the difference between a soft
> > dependency
> > and a disjunctive dependency? How can you satisfy a soft dependency
> > if
> > you don't know what virtual dependency it is being used to provide?
>
> If we have:
>
> Requires: phonon-backend
> Suggests: phonon-backend-gstreamer
>
> What would you expect the outcome to be on a system that has
> phonon-backend-xine? I'd have thought that phonon-backend-gstreamer
> would get installed, even if you can later remove it. That's not the
> desired outcome.

I wouldn't have thought that. I would have thought that if the Requires was already satisfied by phonon-backend-xine, that processing would stop there. You have no need for suggests or recommends either one when the dependency is already satisfied IMO. But, I didn't write any spec around that, so it may be implemented differently in the real (deb) world.
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