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Old 08-29-2011, 02:37 PM
Michael Cronenworth
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

Chris Adams wrote:
> Why does util-linux have two floppy disk formatters (/usr/bin/floppy and
> /usr/sbin/fdformat)?

Why does it have any floppy tools any more? The kernel maintainers don't
support the floppy module and the module hasn't been auto-loaded for
several releases.
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Old 08-29-2011, 02:44 PM
"Jon Ciesla"
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

> Chris Adams wrote:
>> Why does util-linux have two floppy disk formatters (/usr/bin/floppy and
>> /usr/sbin/fdformat)?
>
> Why does it have any floppy tools any more? The kernel maintainers don't
> support the floppy module and the module hasn't been auto-loaded for
> several releases.
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Because there are still people with floppy drives?

-J

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Old 08-29-2011, 02:58 PM
Jos Vos
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 09:44:33AM -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote:

> Because there are still people with floppy drives?

+1

It's ridiculous to think that older HW doesn't exist because systems
with that HW are not sold anymore (I don't even know id the latter
is true at all -- some special purpose systems might still have it).

We just have to wait till people come up with the argument that serial
or parallel ports don't exist anymore.

Don't let us all fall in the GNOME3 trap (assuming that all hardware
now has accelerated graphics support, which is even more ridiculous,
although GNOME3 has become useless for most people I know anyway).

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

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Old 08-29-2011, 03:23 PM
Karel Zak
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 09:37:37AM -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> Chris Adams wrote:
> > Why does util-linux have two floppy disk formatters (/usr/bin/floppy and
> > /usr/sbin/fdformat)?
>
> Why does it have any floppy tools any more?

because we still support floppy devices?

> The kernel maintainers don't
> support the floppy module and the module hasn't been auto-loaded for
> several releases.

Does it mean that "modprobe floppy" does not work?

Karel

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Old 08-30-2011, 01:33 AM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

Karel Zak wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 09:37:37AM -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
>> The kernel maintainers don't
>> support the floppy module and the module hasn't been auto-loaded for
>> several releases.
>
> Does it mean that "modprobe floppy" does not work?

No, it means that (unless this was recently fixed) you have to modprobe it
manually (e.g. from rc.local) because nothing bothers trying to modprobe it
for you anymore. IMHO, this is really broken, but the bug reports about it
were ignored or declared NOTABUG.

Similarily, analog joystick support (yes, those joysticks you plug on the
MIDI ports of those old sound cards) also has to be modprobed manually.

And yes, I have all that stuff plugged on this machine. I barely ever use
it, but that doesn't mean I don't want it to work…

Kevin Kofler

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Old 08-30-2011, 03:22 AM
Chris Adams
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@chello.at> said:
> No, it means that (unless this was recently fixed) you have to modprobe it
> manually (e.g. from rc.local) because nothing bothers trying to modprobe it
> for you anymore. IMHO, this is really broken, but the bug reports about it
> were ignored or declared NOTABUG.

It is very irritating, since I only use floppies when I really need to,
and usually I've upgraded the system (I typically do clean installs)
since the last time. I always have to stop and manually configure the
floppy drive again.

For a while, USB floppy drives got correctly configured when you plugged
them in (a udev rule was added to get /dev/floppy links and ownership),
but that was removed somewhere along the line. I own the package for
formatting floppies in USB drives (ufiformat), and it is also irritating
when I go test it for new releases. With changes over time, I don't
know how to get the device nodes with the correct access for the desktop
user anymore, and I figure if somebody went to the trouble of removing
the udev rules, there's not much point in asking to have them added
back.

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Old 08-30-2011, 11:50 AM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 03:33:04 +0200,
Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@chello.at> wrote:
>
> No, it means that (unless this was recently fixed) you have to modprobe it
> manually (e.g. from rc.local) because nothing bothers trying to modprobe it
> for you anymore. IMHO, this is really broken, but the bug reports about it
> were ignored or declared NOTABUG.

There was significant discussion about this issue on the mailing lists
and Kyle thought he had a good solution to having the floppy drive
recognized when it was there and not adding long delays to the boot up
for people with incorrectly configured (your supposed to disable the floppy
drive in the bios when you don't have one) or broken bios. I am not sure
what happened with the implementation of the solution.

>
> Similarily, analog joystick support (yes, those joysticks you plug on the
> MIDI ports of those old sound cards) also has to be modprobed manually.

I also have a gamepad which is like a joystick and need to do
modprobe analog to get it recognized.
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Old 08-30-2011, 12:31 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 13:41:57 +0100,
Matthew Garrett <mjg59@srcf.ucam.org> wrote:
>
> ACPI turned out to be full of lies. The real problem is that machines
> will report a floppy controller even if they have no floppy drives
> attached, and the ACPI function that's supposed to return a list of
> drives usually returns a mixture of falsehoods and untruths. Merely
> havig a floppy controller is enough to get the floppy driver loaded,
> which then hangs for ages looking for a drive.

Thanks for the explanation.

> There's no way to get any feedback from the gameport driver as to (a)
> whether there's anything plugged in, or (b) what is plugged in. We could
> have the gameport driver automatically pull in analog but that'd
> probably break people doing midi or using some more specialised input
> device. It's a hard problem that only impacts a pretty tiny set of
> people, so it's prioritised somewhere below the hard problems that
> impact a pretty large set of people.

Again thanks for the explanation. I had figured gameports might be hard
to detect so I wasn't too worried about this. I did want to mention
what you needed to include on the modprobe command to get the the driver
loaded in case someone wandered accross the thread later.
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Old 08-30-2011, 12:41 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 06:50:11AM -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 03:33:04 +0200,
> Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@chello.at> wrote:
> >
> > No, it means that (unless this was recently fixed) you have to modprobe it
> > manually (e.g. from rc.local) because nothing bothers trying to modprobe it
> > for you anymore. IMHO, this is really broken, but the bug reports about it
> > were ignored or declared NOTABUG.
>
> There was significant discussion about this issue on the mailing lists
> and Kyle thought he had a good solution to having the floppy drive
> recognized when it was there and not adding long delays to the boot up
> for people with incorrectly configured (your supposed to disable the floppy
> drive in the bios when you don't have one) or broken bios. I am not sure
> what happened with the implementation of the solution.

ACPI turned out to be full of lies. The real problem is that machines
will report a floppy controller even if they have no floppy drives
attached, and the ACPI function that's supposed to return a list of
drives usually returns a mixture of falsehoods and untruths. Merely
havig a floppy controller is enough to get the floppy driver loaded,
which then hangs for ages looking for a drive.

The "easiest" solution would be to fix the floppy driver to probe in the
background but I suspect most people would prefer to empty biohazard
containers full of used needles by hand than touch floppy.c.

> >
> > Similarily, analog joystick support (yes, those joysticks you plug on the
> > MIDI ports of those old sound cards) also has to be modprobed manually.
>
> I also have a gamepad which is like a joystick and need to do
> modprobe analog to get it recognized.

There's no way to get any feedback from the gameport driver as to (a)
whether there's anything plugged in, or (b) what is plugged in. We could
have the gameport driver automatically pull in analog but that'd
probably break people doing midi or using some more specialised input
device. It's a hard problem that only impacts a pretty tiny set of
people, so it's prioritised somewhere below the hard problems that
impact a pretty large set of people.

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Old 08-30-2011, 01:09 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 14:26:39 +0100,
Matthew Garrett <mjg59@srcf.ucam.org> wrote:
>
> Or just add floppy-support and analog-joystick-support packages that
> include appropriate modprobe.conf fragments, and have documentation that
> instructs the user to install them.

To make this more precise, woulf the appropriate way to do this would be to
perhaps put floppy.conf or joystick.conf in /etc/modprode.d?
With a post install script to run modprobe manually?

Are pretty much all joysticks handled by analog or is that situation more
complicated?
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