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Old 08-30-2011, 05:25 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 07:18:40PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Tue, 30.08.11 18:30, Kevin Kofler (kevin.kofler@chello.at) wrote:
> > An Arch Linux user once pointed out to me that Arch (at the time) probed for
> > analog joysticks using this udev rule:
> > SUBSYSTEM=="pnp", ENV{MODALIAS}!="?*", ATTRS{id}=="PNPb02f",
> > RUN+="/lib/udev/load-modules.sh analog"
> > (They have since dropped that rule in their trunk.) I don't know whether it
> > makes any sense though. I presume this is just testing for the presence of a
> > gameport without caring about what is connected, right?
>
> If the PNP device with the ID "PNPb02f" is an analog joystick port then
> instead of hacking userspace rules like this the analog.ko kernel module
> should just gain a modinfo alias for it like for example parport_pc has
> for its PNP device ids. See "modinfo parport_pc" as an example.

The id is already present in ns558, which is the driver for the typical
PC game port. However, this is only the driver for the controller, not
for the joystick itself. In theory we could have the driver probe for a
connected device and request_module("analog") if it finds something, but
(a) that'd only work at boot, and (b) it'd be less than ideal if there's
something other than a standard analog joystick connected.

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Old 08-30-2011, 06:41 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Mon, 2011-08-29 at 16:58 +0200, Jos Vos wrote:

> Don't let us all fall in the GNOME3 trap (assuming that all hardware
> now has accelerated graphics support, which is even more ridiculous,
> although GNOME3 has become useless for most people I know anyway).

GNOME 3 does not do that. It has an entire alternative shell - the
fallback mode - which exists expressly to support systems which cannot
run Shell.
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Old 08-30-2011, 07:13 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

Simo Sorce wrote:
> It seem much more intelligent to add a package owners of floppies can
> install, so that 99.9% of the others do not have to wait forever for no
> reason.

This goes against the principle that Fedora should Just Work on any hardware
it encounters if at all possible.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 08-30-2011, 07:24 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 09:13:05PM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Simo Sorce wrote:
> > It seem much more intelligent to add a package owners of floppies can
> > install, so that 99.9% of the others do not have to wait forever for no
> > reason.
>
> This goes against the principle that Fedora should Just Work on any hardware
> it encounters if at all possible.

There's plenty of hardware that Fedora could work on but doesn't because
the maintainers aren't willing to make the tradeoffs.

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Old 08-30-2011, 07:26 PM
Simo Sorce
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 21:13 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Simo Sorce wrote:
> > It seem much more intelligent to add a package owners of floppies can
> > install, so that 99.9% of the others do not have to wait forever for no
> > reason.
>
> This goes against the principle that Fedora should Just Work on any hardware
> it encounters if at all possible.

I guess you need to define 'Just Work', and 'if at all possible'.

Making boot hang for long periods can easily be seen as 'Not working
properly' and therefore make default floppy support 'not possible'.
At least this is the reasoning I see and agree with.

Simo.

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Old 08-30-2011, 07:55 PM
Chris Adams
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

Once upon a time, Simo Sorce <simo@redhat.com> said:
> Making boot hang for long periods can easily be seen as 'Not working
> properly' and therefore make default floppy support 'not possible'.
> At least this is the reasoning I see and agree with.

How many systems are there that "hang forever" when the floppy module is
loaded? I have never seen that happen, on systems with or without
floppy drives, yet you seem to be saying it happens on vast numbers of
them (99.9% in an earlier message).

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Old 08-30-2011, 08:01 PM
Simo Sorce
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 14:55 -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Simo Sorce <simo@redhat.com> said:
> > Making boot hang for long periods can easily be seen as 'Not working
> > properly' and therefore make default floppy support 'not possible'.
> > At least this is the reasoning I see and agree with.
>
> How many systems are there that "hang forever" when the floppy module is
> loaded? I have never seen that happen, on systems with or without
> floppy drives, yet you seem to be saying it happens on vast numbers of
> them (99.9% in an earlier message).

Don't put words in my mouth that I have never said please.

I said:
A) 99.9% of users do not needed the floppy anymore
B) I said hang for "long periods" and not "forever", where here "long"
is of course relative to modern machine boot times.

A and B are not related of course, and that was clear from the context.

Simo.

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Old 08-30-2011, 08:12 PM
Chris Adams
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

Once upon a time, Simo Sorce <simo@redhat.com> said:
> I said:
> A) 99.9% of users do not needed the floppy anymore
> B) I said hang for "long periods" and not "forever", where here "long"
> is of course relative to modern machine boot times.

You said:

It seem much more intelligent to add a package owners of floppies can
install, so that 99.9% of the others do not have to wait forever for no
reason.

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-August/156261.html

To me, that reads as "99.9% of non-floppy owners have to wait forever".

In any case, instead of arguing semantics, can you answer my actual
question? How many systems hang when floppy.ko is loaded? If it is a
large number, it should be easy to point to lots of data.
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Old 08-30-2011, 08:17 PM
Simo Sorce
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 15:12 -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Simo Sorce <simo@redhat.com> said:
> > I said:
> > A) 99.9% of users do not needed the floppy anymore
> > B) I said hang for "long periods" and not "forever", where here "long"
> > is of course relative to modern machine boot times.
>
> You said:
>
> It seem much more intelligent to add a package owners of floppies can
> install, so that 99.9% of the others do not have to wait forever for no
> reason.
>
> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-August/156261.html
>
> To me, that reads as "99.9% of non-floppy owners have to wait forever".

Ok, reasonable misunderstanding, I didn't mean it that way, sorry.

> In any case, instead of arguing semantics, can you answer my actual
> question? How many systems hang when floppy.ko is loaded? If it is a
> large number, it should be easy to point to lots of data.

They do not 'hang', they just take longer to boot, sometimes a lot
longer. The point is that given most machines do not even ship with a
floppy drive anymore it seem entirely reasonable to spare the wait to
most users because they do not need that support anyway (and even most
of those who have a floppy driver do not use it ever). While for those
few that need it, then having to install a simple package to enable the
support by default seem sensible and good enough.

I don't think I have anything more to add to that.

Simo.

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Old 08-30-2011, 08:22 PM
Chris Adams
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

Once upon a time, Simo Sorce <simo@redhat.com> said:
> They do not 'hang', they just take longer to boot, sometimes a lot
> longer.

How much longer? How many such machines? Again, I've booted systems
without floppy drives but with floppy support loaded, and I haven't seen
any significant hang.

Leaving known-working hardware unusable at install is just rude and
irritating when it is needed. There should be good justification, not
just "a bunch of developers don't use it anymore, so we don't think
anybody else needs it".
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