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Old 08-30-2011, 01:20 PM
Tomas Mraz
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 13:41 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 06:50:11AM -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 03:33:04 +0200,
> > Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@chello.at> wrote:
> > >
> > > No, it means that (unless this was recently fixed) you have to modprobe it
> > > manually (e.g. from rc.local) because nothing bothers trying to modprobe it
> > > for you anymore. IMHO, this is really broken, but the bug reports about it
> > > were ignored or declared NOTABUG.
> >
> > There was significant discussion about this issue on the mailing lists
> > and Kyle thought he had a good solution to having the floppy drive
> > recognized when it was there and not adding long delays to the boot up
> > for people with incorrectly configured (your supposed to disable the floppy
> > drive in the bios when you don't have one) or broken bios. I am not sure
> > what happened with the implementation of the solution.
>
> ACPI turned out to be full of lies. The real problem is that machines
> will report a floppy controller even if they have no floppy drives
> attached, and the ACPI function that's supposed to return a list of
> drives usually returns a mixture of falsehoods and untruths. Merely
> havig a floppy controller is enough to get the floppy driver loaded,
> which then hangs for ages looking for a drive.

That seems like a clear opportunity to add a simple "configure legacy
hardware" button to anaconda, that would do the modprobe floppy/gameport
etc. stuff so it is loaded. Perhaps there could be switches: I have
these legacy hardware:
Floppy disk
Analog joystick
.... whatever


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Old 08-30-2011, 01:23 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 14:37:16 +0100,
Matthew Garrett <mjg59@srcf.ucam.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 08:09:51AM -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 14:26:39 +0100,
> > Matthew Garrett <mjg59@srcf.ucam.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Or just add floppy-support and analog-joystick-support packages that
> > > include appropriate modprobe.conf fragments, and have documentation that
> > > instructs the user to install them.
> >
> > To make this more precise, woulf the appropriate way to do this would be to
> > perhaps put floppy.conf or joystick.conf in /etc/modprode.d?
> > With a post install script to run modprobe manually?
>
> That seems like it'd work.

I'll need to test it. Right now I use explicit modprobe commands in
rc.local, which isn't good for packages. I looked at modprobe.conf
documentation and it doesn't seem like it uses those files to determine
what to load, only what to do if it is loaded. So it may be that udev
is really the correct place to do things.

I'll investigate that. Once I know the right thing to do, the packaging
should be pretty easy.
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Old 08-30-2011, 01:26 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 03:20:22PM +0200, Tomas Mraz wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 13:41 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > ACPI turned out to be full of lies. The real problem is that machines
> > will report a floppy controller even if they have no floppy drives
> > attached, and the ACPI function that's supposed to return a list of
> > drives usually returns a mixture of falsehoods and untruths. Merely
> > havig a floppy controller is enough to get the floppy driver loaded,
> > which then hangs for ages looking for a drive.
>
> That seems like a clear opportunity to add a simple "configure legacy
> hardware" button to anaconda, that would do the modprobe floppy/gameport
> etc. stuff so it is loaded. Perhaps there could be switches: I have
> these legacy hardware:
> Floppy disk
> Analog joystick
> .... whatever

Or just add floppy-support and analog-joystick-support packages that
include appropriate modprobe.conf fragments, and have documentation that
instructs the user to install them.

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Old 08-30-2011, 01:37 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 08:09:51AM -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 14:26:39 +0100,
> Matthew Garrett <mjg59@srcf.ucam.org> wrote:
> >
> > Or just add floppy-support and analog-joystick-support packages that
> > include appropriate modprobe.conf fragments, and have documentation that
> > instructs the user to install them.
>
> To make this more precise, woulf the appropriate way to do this would be to
> perhaps put floppy.conf or joystick.conf in /etc/modprode.d?
> With a post install script to run modprobe manually?

That seems like it'd work.

> Are pretty much all joysticks handled by analog or is that situation more
> complicated?

Most are. There are some devices that need their own drivers, and as far
as I know there's no defined PNP protocol for joysticks.

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Old 08-30-2011, 02:25 PM
John5342
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 14:23, Bruno Wolff III <bruno@wolff.to> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 14:37:16 +0100,
> *Matthew Garrett <mjg59@srcf.ucam.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 08:09:51AM -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
>> > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 14:26:39 +0100,
>> > * Matthew Garrett <mjg59@srcf.ucam.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Or just add floppy-support and analog-joystick-support packages that
>> > > include appropriate modprobe.conf fragments, and have documentation that
>> > > instructs the user to install them.
>> >
>> > To make this more precise, woulf the appropriate way to do this would be to
>> > perhaps put floppy.conf or joystick.conf in /etc/modprode.d?
>> > With a post install script to run modprobe manually?
>>
>> That seems like it'd work.
>
> I'll need to test it. Right now I use explicit modprobe commands in
> rc.local, which isn't good for packages. I looked at modprobe.conf
> documentation and it doesn't seem like it uses those files to determine
> what to load, only what to do if it is loaded. So it may be that udev
> is really the correct place to do things.
>
> I'll investigate that. Once I know the right thing to do, the packaging
> should be pretty easy.

"man modules-load.d" looks promising too.

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Old 08-30-2011, 04:25 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

Matthew Garrett wrote:
> ACPI turned out to be full of lies. The real problem is that machines
> will report a floppy controller even if they have no floppy drives
> attached, and the ACPI function that's supposed to return a list of
> drives usually returns a mixture of falsehoods and untruths. Merely
> havig a floppy controller is enough to get the floppy driver loaded,
> which then hangs for ages looking for a drive.

I think it's sad that we're sacrificing hardware support for boot times.

We should probe for everything by default. Users who don't have a floppy
drive and want to save some boot time can blacklist the driver manually.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 08-30-2011, 04:30 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

Matthew Garrett wrote:
> There's no way to get any feedback from the gameport driver as to (a)
> whether there's anything plugged in, or (b) what is plugged in. We could
> have the gameport driver automatically pull in analog but that'd
> probably break people doing midi or using some more specialised input
> device. It's a hard problem that only impacts a pretty tiny set of
> people, so it's prioritised somewhere below the hard problems that
> impact a pretty large set of people.

An Arch Linux user once pointed out to me that Arch (at the time) probed for
analog joysticks using this udev rule:
SUBSYSTEM=="pnp", ENV{MODALIAS}!="?*", ATTRS{id}=="PNPb02f",
RUN+="/lib/udev/load-modules.sh analog"
(They have since dropped that rule in their trunk.) I don't know whether it
makes any sense though. I presume this is just testing for the presence of a
gameport without caring about what is connected, right?

Kevin Kofler

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Old 08-30-2011, 05:00 PM
Simo Sorce
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 18:25 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > ACPI turned out to be full of lies. The real problem is that machines
> > will report a floppy controller even if they have no floppy drives
> > attached, and the ACPI function that's supposed to return a list of
> > drives usually returns a mixture of falsehoods and untruths. Merely
> > havig a floppy controller is enough to get the floppy driver loaded,
> > which then hangs for ages looking for a drive.
>
> I think it's sad that we're sacrificing hardware support for boot times.
>
> We should probe for everything by default. Users who don't have a floppy
> drive and want to save some boot time can blacklist the driver manually.

It seem much more intelligent to add a package owners of floppies can
install, so that 99.9% of the others do not have to wait forever for no
reason.

Simo.

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Old 08-30-2011, 05:17 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 06:30:30PM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:

> An Arch Linux user once pointed out to me that Arch (at the time) probed for
> analog joysticks using this udev rule:
> SUBSYSTEM=="pnp", ENV{MODALIAS}!="?*", ATTRS{id}=="PNPb02f",
> RUN+="/lib/udev/load-modules.sh analog"
> (They have since dropped that rule in their trunk.) I don't know whether it
> makes any sense though. I presume this is just testing for the presence of a
> gameport without caring about what is connected, right?

Right.

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Old 08-30-2011, 05:18 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default floppy support (was: remove ddate(1) command from rawhide)

On Tue, 30.08.11 18:30, Kevin Kofler (kevin.kofler@chello.at) wrote:

>
> Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > There's no way to get any feedback from the gameport driver as to (a)
> > whether there's anything plugged in, or (b) what is plugged in. We could
> > have the gameport driver automatically pull in analog but that'd
> > probably break people doing midi or using some more specialised input
> > device. It's a hard problem that only impacts a pretty tiny set of
> > people, so it's prioritised somewhere below the hard problems that
> > impact a pretty large set of people.
>
> An Arch Linux user once pointed out to me that Arch (at the time) probed for
> analog joysticks using this udev rule:
> SUBSYSTEM=="pnp", ENV{MODALIAS}!="?*", ATTRS{id}=="PNPb02f",
> RUN+="/lib/udev/load-modules.sh analog"
> (They have since dropped that rule in their trunk.) I don't know whether it
> makes any sense though. I presume this is just testing for the presence of a
> gameport without caring about what is connected, right?

If the PNP device with the ID "PNPb02f" is an analog joystick port then
instead of hacking userspace rules like this the analog.ko kernel module
should just gain a modinfo alias for it like for example parport_pc has
for its PNP device ids. See "modinfo parport_pc" as an example.

Lennart

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