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Toshio Kuratomi 07-24-2011 12:03 AM

Java 7 for Fedora 16
 
On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 02:00:24PM -0700, Douglas Myers–Turnbull wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Just something I wanted to bring to attention:
>
> Java 7 is slated for release (after years of hassle and heated debate)
> on 28 July, 2011.
> I think this would be an important feature to include for the Fedora
> 16 release, and the months between Java's release and Fedora 16's 25
> October release would allow plenty of time to integrate Java 7. If I'm
> not mistaken, if Java 7 isn't released this time around, it won't be
> in Fedora until the Fedora 17 release rolls around, nearly a year (!)
> after Java 7 is released.
>
> I created an unfinished, skeletal feature page here:
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Java7
> Unfortunately, I don't have the knowledge to help build it. I'm
> announcing it here in case whoever maintains Java 6 in Fedora, or
> someone else, is interested.
>
The alpha change deadline is a week and three days away so this is very
likely too late. If you want to try to get an exception to get this in, you
need to get the Java SIG excited to do it, get the Feature page finished
(with estimates of how much time it will take to finish and who will do the
work) and put it before FESCo/Feature Wrangler to see if they'll grant an
exception.

Judging by the state things are in now, I don't know that it looks too
hopeful unless you get some Java SIG people to commit to working on it.

Maybe a better idea would be to try to make your contingency plan into
a Fedora 16 feature and Java 7 as default for all of our java applications
a Fedora 17 feature (that would still need a fesco exception for a late
feature but if the Java 7 stack didn't affect the rest of the software on
the system, it would largely be a Feature needing release notes instad of
a feature needing coordination between maintainers. Those are easier to
grant exceptions for.)

-Toshio
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Deepak Bhole 07-25-2011 03:30 PM

Java 7 for Fedora 16
 
* Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger@gmail.com> [2011-07-23 20:03]:
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 02:00:24PM -0700, Douglas Myers–Turnbull wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Just something I wanted to bring to attention:
> >
> > Java 7 is slated for release (after years of hassle and heated debate)
> > on 28 July, 2011.
> > I think this would be an important feature to include for the Fedora
> > 16 release, and the months between Java's release and Fedora 16's 25
> > October release would allow plenty of time to integrate Java 7. If I'm
> > not mistaken, if Java 7 isn't released this time around, it won't be
> > in Fedora until the Fedora 17 release rolls around, nearly a year (!)
> > after Java 7 is released.
> >
> > I created an unfinished, skeletal feature page here:
> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Java7
> > Unfortunately, I don't have the knowledge to help build it. I'm
> > announcing it here in case whoever maintains Java 6 in Fedora, or
> > someone else, is interested.
> >

I was planning to do this myself .. glad you started it :) I can take
over the Feature and doing all the work if you're fine with it...

> The alpha change deadline is a week and three days away so this is very
> likely too late. If you want to try to get an exception to get this in, you
> need to get the Java SIG excited to do it, get the Feature page finished
> (with estimates of how much time it will take to finish and who will do the
> work) and put it before FESCo/Feature Wrangler to see if they'll grant an
> exception.
>
> Judging by the state things are in now, I don't know that it looks too
> hopeful unless you get some Java SIG people to commit to working on it.
>

This is doable by the Alpha deadline. The main holdup for us has been a
lack of OpenJDK TCK for v7. The actual RPM can be written fairly
quickly. We were hopeful that we'd be able to push a more tested initial
version. But given the deadlines, it appears we will have to push
whatever we have right now and modify/fix it as needed when we have the
TCK.

Cheers,
Deepak

> Maybe a better idea would be to try to make your contingency plan into
> a Fedora 16 feature and Java 7 as default for all of our java applications
> a Fedora 17 feature (that would still need a fesco exception for a late
> feature but if the Java 7 stack didn't affect the rest of the software on
> the system, it would largely be a Feature needing release notes instad of
> a feature needing coordination between maintainers. Those are easier to
> grant exceptions for.)
>
> -Toshio



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Toshio Kuratomi 07-25-2011 07:18 PM

Java 7 for Fedora 16
 
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:30:23AM -0400, Deepak Bhole wrote:
> * Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger@gmail.com> [2011-07-23 20:03]:
> > The alpha change deadline is a week and three days away so this is very
> > likely too late. If you want to try to get an exception to get this in, you
> > need to get the Java SIG excited to do it, get the Feature page finished
> > (with estimates of how much time it will take to finish and who will do the
> > work) and put it before FESCo/Feature Wrangler to see if they'll grant an
> > exception.
> >
> > Judging by the state things are in now, I don't know that it looks too
> > hopeful unless you get some Java SIG people to commit to working on it.
> >
>
> This is doable by the Alpha deadline. The main holdup for us has been a
> lack of OpenJDK TCK for v7. The actual RPM can be written fairly
> quickly. We were hopeful that we'd be able to push a more tested initial
> version. But given the deadlines, it appears we will have to push
> whatever we have right now and modify/fix it as needed when we have the
> TCK.
>
Note: The *Feature deadline* is already passed. That's why I use the word
"exception" in what I wrote.

Robyn and I have talked about how the feature process could be adapted to
allow for more late work to occur however none of that talk has turned into
anything solid yet. One point that bears on this is that the Feature Owners
must be willing to commit to doing all the work involved in coordination
when they submit something late. In other words, if Java 7 update went in
well before the feature deadline, the expectation would be that packagers
whose packages depended on Java would need to adapt to Java 7. The
expectation now that the Feature Freeze has passed is that the people
pushing Java 7 into the repos would also need to seek out and fix all the
packages that depend on them that are broken.

Hope that helps in creating a Feature plan that FESCo can grant an exception
to in good conscience,

-Toshio


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Deepak Bhole 07-25-2011 07:20 PM

Java 7 for Fedora 16
 
* Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger@gmail.com> [2011-07-25 15:18]:
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:30:23AM -0400, Deepak Bhole wrote:
> > * Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger@gmail.com> [2011-07-23 20:03]:
> > > The alpha change deadline is a week and three days away so this is very
> > > likely too late. If you want to try to get an exception to get this in, you
> > > need to get the Java SIG excited to do it, get the Feature page finished
> > > (with estimates of how much time it will take to finish and who will do the
> > > work) and put it before FESCo/Feature Wrangler to see if they'll grant an
> > > exception.
> > >
> > > Judging by the state things are in now, I don't know that it looks too
> > > hopeful unless you get some Java SIG people to commit to working on it.
> > >
> >
> > This is doable by the Alpha deadline. The main holdup for us has been a
> > lack of OpenJDK TCK for v7. The actual RPM can be written fairly
> > quickly. We were hopeful that we'd be able to push a more tested initial
> > version. But given the deadlines, it appears we will have to push
> > whatever we have right now and modify/fix it as needed when we have the
> > TCK.
> >
> Note: The *Feature deadline* is already passed. That's why I use the word
> "exception" in what I wrote.
>
> Robyn and I have talked about how the feature process could be adapted to
> allow for more late work to occur however none of that talk has turned into
> anything solid yet. One point that bears on this is that the Feature Owners
> must be willing to commit to doing all the work involved in coordination
> when they submit something late. In other words, if Java 7 update went in
> well before the feature deadline, the expectation would be that packagers
> whose packages depended on Java would need to adapt to Java 7. The
> expectation now that the Feature Freeze has passed is that the people
> pushing Java 7 into the repos would also need to seek out and fix all the
> packages that depend on them that are broken.
>

Ah, thank you for the clarification. I wasn't aware of the above
distinction in exception cases.

> Hope that helps in creating a Feature plan that FESCo can grant an exception
> to in good conscience,
>

Thanks,
Deepak

> -Toshio
>
>


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Bill Nottingham 07-25-2011 07:53 PM

Java 7 for Fedora 16
 
Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger@gmail.com) said:
> Robyn and I have talked about how the feature process could be adapted to
> allow for more late work to occur however none of that talk has turned into
> anything solid yet. One point that bears on this is that the Feature Owners
> must be willing to commit to doing all the work involved in coordination
> when they submit something late. In other words, if Java 7 update went in
> well before the feature deadline, the expectation would be that packagers
> whose packages depended on Java would need to adapt to Java 7. The
> expectation now that the Feature Freeze has passed is that the people
> pushing Java 7 into the repos would also need to seek out and fix all the
> packages that depend on them that are broken.

Would we actually be shipping only 7, or both 6 and 7?

Bill
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Bill Nottingham 07-25-2011 07:53 PM

Java 7 for Fedora 16
 
Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger@gmail.com) said:
> Robyn and I have talked about how the feature process could be adapted to
> allow for more late work to occur however none of that talk has turned into
> anything solid yet. One point that bears on this is that the Feature Owners
> must be willing to commit to doing all the work involved in coordination
> when they submit something late. In other words, if Java 7 update went in
> well before the feature deadline, the expectation would be that packagers
> whose packages depended on Java would need to adapt to Java 7. The
> expectation now that the Feature Freeze has passed is that the people
> pushing Java 7 into the repos would also need to seek out and fix all the
> packages that depend on them that are broken.

Would we actually be shipping only 7, or both 6 and 7?

Bill
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Deepak Bhole 07-25-2011 08:04 PM

Java 7 for Fedora 16
 
* Bill Nottingham <notting@redhat.com> [2011-07-25 15:54]:
> Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger@gmail.com) said:
> > Robyn and I have talked about how the feature process could be adapted to
> > allow for more late work to occur however none of that talk has turned into
> > anything solid yet. One point that bears on this is that the Feature Owners
> > must be willing to commit to doing all the work involved in coordination
> > when they submit something late. In other words, if Java 7 update went in
> > well before the feature deadline, the expectation would be that packagers
> > whose packages depended on Java would need to adapt to Java 7. The
> > expectation now that the Feature Freeze has passed is that the people
> > pushing Java 7 into the repos would also need to seek out and fix all the
> > packages that depend on them that are broken.
>
> Would we actually be shipping only 7, or both 6 and 7?
>

This hasn't been debated yet, but I am very much in favour of having
only 7 in Fedora 16.

If the reason for asking was w.r.t re-builds, it is unlikely that most
applications will need a rebuild -- only those using deprecated APIs
(which would have been deprecated for years now) and private APIs would
be affected. That would likely be a small subset.

Opinions from others are welcome..

Cheers,
Deepak
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Deepak Bhole 07-25-2011 08:04 PM

Java 7 for Fedora 16
 
* Bill Nottingham <notting@redhat.com> [2011-07-25 15:54]:
> Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger@gmail.com) said:
> > Robyn and I have talked about how the feature process could be adapted to
> > allow for more late work to occur however none of that talk has turned into
> > anything solid yet. One point that bears on this is that the Feature Owners
> > must be willing to commit to doing all the work involved in coordination
> > when they submit something late. In other words, if Java 7 update went in
> > well before the feature deadline, the expectation would be that packagers
> > whose packages depended on Java would need to adapt to Java 7. The
> > expectation now that the Feature Freeze has passed is that the people
> > pushing Java 7 into the repos would also need to seek out and fix all the
> > packages that depend on them that are broken.
>
> Would we actually be shipping only 7, or both 6 and 7?
>

This hasn't been debated yet, but I am very much in favour of having
only 7 in Fedora 16.

If the reason for asking was w.r.t re-builds, it is unlikely that most
applications will need a rebuild -- only those using deprecated APIs
(which would have been deprecated for years now) and private APIs would
be affected. That would likely be a small subset.

Opinions from others are welcome..

Cheers,
Deepak
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Douglas Myers–Turnbull 07-26-2011 12:53 AM

Java 7 for Fedora 16
 
> I was planning to do this myself .. glad you started it :) I can take
> over the Feature and doing all the work if you're fine with it...

Please do!

The only work I've done (literally) is on the feature page, but feel
free let me know if you need anything from me.

>This hasn't been debated yet, but I am very much in favour of having
only 7 in Fedora 16.

This is probably the preferred situation for everyone. Java 7 really
shouldn't introduce any backwards-incompatible changes with Java 6, so
I imagine it should be fine unless significant issues arise during
testing. I'd also bet that's something that can be decided relatively
last-minute.

Is there a list of deprecated APIs (presumably from Java 5 or earlier)
that were removed in Java 7? It could help sort through what packages
(by age of creation and last update) are most likely to be affected,
and searches for those method calls, etc. could be performed on the
packages' sources.

Thanks for all this good conversation.

Regards,
Douglas
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Adam Williamson 07-26-2011 06:22 AM

Java 7 for Fedora 16
 
On Sat, 2011-07-23 at 14:00 -0700, Douglas Myers–Turnbull wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Just something I wanted to bring to attention:
>
> Java 7 is slated for release (after years of hassle and heated debate)
> on 28 July, 2011.
> I think this would be an important feature to include for the Fedora
> 16 release, and the months between Java's release and Fedora 16's 25
> October release would allow plenty of time to integrate Java 7. If I'm
> not mistaken, if Java 7 isn't released this time around, it won't be
> in Fedora until the Fedora 17 release rolls around, nearly a year (!)
> after Java 7 is released.
>
> I created an unfinished, skeletal feature page here:
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Java7
> Unfortunately, I don't have the knowledge to help build it. I'm
> announcing it here in case whoever maintains Java 6 in Fedora, or
> someone else, is interested.

as I always point out when this comes up, in the hopes that it'll
eventually irritate someone enough that they go fix the feature process,
the option is open to simply put Java 7 in without it being a 'Fedora
feature'. If you do it that way, you could do it right up to, hmm, the
post-Beta final freeze without there being any firm policy grounds on
which to object to the change. it's only if you declare it to be a
Feature that FESCo is clearly empowered to tell you you can't do it. ;)

(I note with interest Toshio's neat caveat to this, which appears later
in the thread.)
--
Adam "it's not a feature, it's just a version bump!" Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net

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