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Old 08-01-2011, 01:40 PM
Lars Seipel
 
Default Java 7 for Fedora 16

On Monday 01 August 2011 13:49:38 Andrew Haley wrote:

> That's not a Java 7 change, it's a new VM bug. The real cause is that
> optimizations used in an older VM are enabled by default. I still think
> we'll have to ship 6 and 7 in parallel.

As far as I know there are fixes for these bugs in OpenJDK, though. It's just
that Oracle won't deliver them in their distribution of Java before update 2.

Lars
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Old 08-01-2011, 01:50 PM
Dr Andrew John Hughes
 
Default Java 7 for Fedora 16

On 10:55 Fri 29 Jul , Deepak Bhole wrote:
> * Omair Majid <omajid@redhat.com> [2011-07-29 10:32]:
> > On 07/25/2011 04:04 PM, Deepak Bhole wrote:
> > >* Bill Nottingham<notting@redhat.com> [2011-07-25 15:54]:
> > >>Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger@gmail.com) said:
> > >>>Robyn and I have talked about how the feature process could be adapted to
> > >>>allow for more late work to occur however none of that talk has turned into
> > >>>anything solid yet. One point that bears on this is that the Feature Owners
> > >>>must be willing to commit to doing all the work involved in coordination
> > >>>when they submit something late. In other words, if Java 7 update went in
> > >>>well before the feature deadline, the expectation would be that packagers
> > >>>whose packages depended on Java would need to adapt to Java 7. The
> > >>>expectation now that the Feature Freeze has passed is that the people
> > >>>pushing Java 7 into the repos would also need to seek out and fix all the
> > >>>packages that depend on them that are broken.
> > >>
> > >>Would we actually be shipping only 7, or both 6 and 7?
> > >>
> > >
> > >This hasn't been debated yet, but I am very much in favour of having
> > >only 7 in Fedora 16.
> > >
> > >If the reason for asking was w.r.t re-builds, it is unlikely that most
> > >applications will need a rebuild -- only those using deprecated APIs
> > >(which would have been deprecated for years now) and private APIs would
> > >be affected. That would likely be a small subset.
> >
> > Have you seen the list of incompatibilities?
> >
> > http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/compatibility-417013.html
> >
>
> Thanks. I hadn't seen the full list, but I knew it'd fairly small
> given how much importance compatibility has been given in the past and
> for 7.
>
> Unfortunately it is not possible to gauge how much Fedora will be
> affected by that :/ My biggest concern would be for apps using sun.*
> APIs. As mentioned above though, it should be a small percentage.
>

The old com.sun jpeg libraries would be the obvious ones to spring to mind.

Whatever list Oracle has come up with doesn't really compare to real-world
use and testing.

I think we should offer both in F16.

> Cheers,
> Deepak
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Old 08-01-2011, 01:57 PM
Marek Goldmann
 
Default Java 7 for Fedora 16

+1

--Marek

On 1 sie 2011, at 15:50, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote:

> I think we should offer both in F16.

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Old 08-03-2011, 10:00 PM
Deepak Bhole
 
Default Java 7 for Fedora 16

* Douglas Myers–Turnbull <dmyersturnbull@gmail.com> [2011-07-25 20:53]:
> > I was planning to do this myself .. glad you started it I can take
> > over the Feature and doing all the work if you're fine with it...
>
> Please do!
>
> The only work I've done (literally) is on the feature page, but feel
> free let me know if you need anything from me.
>

Hi Douglas,

Thank you once again for creating the page. I have started updating it
and will add docs and other links tomorrow:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Java7

For anyone and everyone interested, a Java 7 build is now available in
the Fedora 16. I will build for rawhide in the coming days as well:
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=257034

Cheers,
Deepak
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Old 08-26-2011, 02:18 PM
Andy Grimm
 
Default Java 7 for Fedora 16

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Deepak Bhole <dbhole@redhat.com> wrote:
> * Douglas Myers–Turnbull <dmyersturnbull@gmail.com> [2011-07-25 20:53]:
>> > I was planning to do this myself .. glad you started it I can take
>> > over the Feature and doing all the work if you're fine with it...
>>
>> Please do!
>>
>> The only work I've done (literally) is on the feature page, but feel
>> free let me know if you need anything from me.
>>
>
> Hi Douglas,
>
> Thank you once again for creating the page. I have started updating it
> and will add docs and other links tomorrow:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Java7
>
> For anyone and everyone interested, a Java 7 build is now available in
> the Fedora 16. I will build for rawhide in the coming days as well:
> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=257034
>
> Cheers,
> Deepak

After some discussion on #fedora-java over the past 24 hours, I was
asked to continue the discussion here regarding the implications of
openjdk 6 and 7 coexisting in F16. Right now, java packages are being
built for F16 using openjdk 7, and if they are built without
"target=1.6", they will fail to load under openjdk 6. (One simple
example of this is xalan, see
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=733686 ). Some possible
solutions proposed over IRC:

1) Blacklist openjdk 7 from build roots for f16 -- this means that it
doesn't get tested very well, though.

2) Ensure all java packages use target=1.6 -- there's no standard way
to do this across ant, mvn, javac, etc. though. You could check for
1.7 bytecode at the end of a build, but packages would still need to
be individually fixed.

3) Drop openjdk 6 from F16 entirely

It was also mentioned that Fedora is beginning to include some
packages which build much more cleanly on openjdk 7 than they do on 6,
so enforcing openjdk 6-only build roots might break some things.

Other suggestions are welcome. I don't have a strong opinion about
this, just a strong interest in having a sane Java environment in F16.

Thanks,

--Andy
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Old 08-26-2011, 02:46 PM
Deepak Bhole
 
Default Java 7 for Fedora 16

* Andy Grimm <agrimm@gmail.com> [2011-08-26 10:18]:
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Deepak Bhole <dbhole@redhat.com> wrote:
> > * Douglas Myers–Turnbull <dmyersturnbull@gmail.com> [2011-07-25 20:53]:
> >> > I was planning to do this myself .. glad you started it I can take
> >> > over the Feature and doing all the work if you're fine with it...
> >>
> >> Please do!
> >>
> >> The only work I've done (literally) is on the feature page, but feel
> >> free let me know if you need anything from me.
> >>
> >
> > Hi Douglas,
> >
> > Thank you once again for creating the page. I have started updating it
> > and will add docs and other links tomorrow:
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Java7
> >
> > For anyone and everyone interested, a Java 7 build is now available in
> > the Fedora 16. I will build for rawhide in the coming days as well:
> > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=257034
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Deepak
>

Hi Andy,

> After some discussion on #fedora-java over the past 24 hours, I was
> asked to continue the discussion here regarding the implications of
> openjdk 6 and 7 coexisting in F16. Right now, java packages are being
> built for F16 using openjdk 7, and if they are built without
> "target=1.6", they will fail to load under openjdk 6. (One simple
> example of this is xalan, see
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=733686 ). Some possible
> solutions proposed over IRC:
>
> 1) Blacklist openjdk 7 from build roots for f16 -- this means that it
> doesn't get tested very well, though.
>

This would only be a short term solution. As soon as a package that needs
Java 7 is added/updated, it will require OpenJDK7 to be removed from the
blacklist.

> 2) Ensure all java packages use target=1.6 -- there's no standard way
> to do this across ant, mvn, javac, etc. though. You could check for
> 1.7 bytecode at the end of a build, but packages would still need to
> be individually fixed.
>

Agreed. This would be too tedious.

> 3) Drop openjdk 6 from F16 entirely
>

I think this is the best, but unfortunately not easily doable at the
moment. Alex (akurtakov) has been working on removing 1.6.0 dependencies
and has encountered cases (e.g. tomcat5) where it is not easily possible
due to interfaces having changed in Java 7.

Regardless though, we need to make all packages build with 1.7 because
as more packages build with 1.7, packages that require 1.6 explicitly
will fail to build as the 1.6 javac won't be able to load 1.7 compiled
classes.

Dropping 6 is also problematic because we don't have a TCK for 7 yet,
which means 6 is the only TCK tested version in Fedora atm.

Nonetheless, I think #3 is the only realistic option that will be most
permanent.

Cheers,
Deepak

> It was also mentioned that Fedora is beginning to include some
> packages which build much more cleanly on openjdk 7 than they do on 6,
> so enforcing openjdk 6-only build roots might break some things.
>
> Other suggestions are welcome. I don't have a strong opinion about
> this, just a strong interest in having a sane Java environment in F16.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Andy
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Old 08-26-2011, 02:46 PM
Peter Robinson
 
Default Java 7 for Fedora 16

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Andy Grimm <agrimm@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Deepak Bhole <dbhole@redhat.com> wrote:
>> * Douglas Myers–Turnbull <dmyersturnbull@gmail.com> [2011-07-25 20:53]:
>>> > I was planning to do this myself .. glad you started it I can take
>>> > over the Feature and doing all the work if you're fine with it...
>>>
>>> Please do!
>>>
>>> The only work I've done (literally) is on the feature page, but feel
>>> free let me know if you need anything from me.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Douglas,
>>
>> Thank you once again for creating the page. I have started updating it
>> and will add docs and other links tomorrow:
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Java7
>>
>> For anyone and everyone interested, a Java 7 build is now available in
>> the Fedora 16. I will build for rawhide in the coming days as well:
>> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=257034
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Deepak
>
> After some discussion on #fedora-java over the past 24 hours, I was
> asked to continue the discussion here regarding the implications of
> openjdk 6 and 7 coexisting in F16. *Right now, java packages are being
> built for F16 using openjdk 7, and if they are built without
> "target=1.6", they will fail to load under openjdk 6. *(One simple
> example of this is xalan, see
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=733686 ). *Some possible
> solutions proposed over IRC:
>
> 1) Blacklist openjdk 7 from build roots for f16 -- this means that it
> doesn't get tested very well, though.
>
> 2) Ensure all java packages use target=1.6 -- there's no standard way
> to do this across ant, mvn, javac, etc. though. *You could check for
> 1.7 bytecode at the end of a build, but packages would still need to
> be individually fixed.
>
> 3) Drop openjdk 6 from F16 entirely
>
> It was also mentioned that Fedora is beginning to include some
> packages which build much more cleanly on openjdk 7 than they do on 6,
> so enforcing openjdk 6-only build roots might break some things.
>
> Other suggestions are welcome. *I don't have a strong opinion about
> this, just a strong interest in having a sane Java environment in F16.

I think that would have to go to FESCo for approval or at least a
decision, its a fairly major change to happen post alpha where all
major changes should have landed already and all major mass rebuilds
should have been done.

Peter
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Old 08-26-2011, 03:29 PM
Deepak Bhole
 
Default Java 7 for Fedora 16

* Deepak Bhole <dbhole@redhat.com> [2011-08-26 10:46]:
> * Andy Grimm <agrimm@gmail.com> [2011-08-26 10:18]:
> > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Deepak Bhole <dbhole@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > * Douglas Myers–Turnbull <dmyersturnbull@gmail.com> [2011-07-25 20:53]:
> > >> > I was planning to do this myself .. glad you started it I can take
> > >> > over the Feature and doing all the work if you're fine with it...
> > >>
> > >> Please do!
> > >>
> > >> The only work I've done (literally) is on the feature page, but feel
> > >> free let me know if you need anything from me.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Hi Douglas,
> > >
> > > Thank you once again for creating the page. I have started updating it
> > > and will add docs and other links tomorrow:
> > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Java7
> > >
> > > For anyone and everyone interested, a Java 7 build is now available in
> > > the Fedora 16. I will build for rawhide in the coming days as well:
> > > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=257034
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Deepak
> >
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> > After some discussion on #fedora-java over the past 24 hours, I was
> > asked to continue the discussion here regarding the implications of
> > openjdk 6 and 7 coexisting in F16. Right now, java packages are being
> > built for F16 using openjdk 7, and if they are built without
> > "target=1.6", they will fail to load under openjdk 6. (One simple
> > example of this is xalan, see
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=733686 ). Some possible
> > solutions proposed over IRC:
> >
> > 1) Blacklist openjdk 7 from build roots for f16 -- this means that it
> > doesn't get tested very well, though.
> >
>
> This would only be a short term solution. As soon as a package that needs
> Java 7 is added/updated, it will require OpenJDK7 to be removed from the
> blacklist.
>
> > 2) Ensure all java packages use target=1.6 -- there's no standard way
> > to do this across ant, mvn, javac, etc. though. You could check for
> > 1.7 bytecode at the end of a build, but packages would still need to
> > be individually fixed.
> >
>
> Agreed. This would be too tedious.
>
> > 3) Drop openjdk 6 from F16 entirely
> >
>
> I think this is the best, but unfortunately not easily doable at the
> moment. Alex (akurtakov) has been working on removing 1.6.0 dependencies
> and has encountered cases (e.g. tomcat5) where it is not easily possible
> due to interfaces having changed in Java 7.
>
> Regardless though, we need to make all packages build with 1.7 because
> as more packages build with 1.7, packages that require 1.6 explicitly
> will fail to build as the 1.6 javac won't be able to load 1.7 compiled
> classes.
>
> Dropping 6 is also problematic because we don't have a TCK for 7 yet,
> which means 6 is the only TCK tested version in Fedora atm.
>
> Nonetheless, I think #3 is the only realistic option that will be most
> permanent.
>

Andrew Haley and I just had a chat about this.

We both agree that weaning off the 1.6 dependency is the best long-term
solution. We essentially want it so that nothing in Fedora needs 1.6.

That said, we will continue to ship 1.6 since 3rd party apps may need
it. We will however remove the alternatives for 1.6, so using them will
require the user to manually set JAVA_HOME to
/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.6.0..../ and call the java binary from that dir.
This will prevent someone from accidentally switching the system
alternative to 1.6 and having (1.7 built) apps fail.

Are there any major objections to the above?

In the mean time, I am going to start building all java packages
currently in F16 against 1.7 only to see the scope of changes that will
be needed.

Cheers,
Deepak

> Cheers,
> Deepak
>
> > It was also mentioned that Fedora is beginning to include some
> > packages which build much more cleanly on openjdk 7 than they do on 6,
> > so enforcing openjdk 6-only build roots might break some things.
> >
> > Other suggestions are welcome. I don't have a strong opinion about
> > this, just a strong interest in having a sane Java environment in F16.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > --Andy
> --
> devel mailing list
> devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
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Old 08-26-2011, 03:57 PM
Toshio Kuratomi
 
Default Java 7 for Fedora 16

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:29:33AM -0400, Deepak Bhole wrote:
>
> Andrew Haley and I just had a chat about this.
>
> We both agree that weaning off the 1.6 dependency is the best long-term
> solution. We essentially want it so that nothing in Fedora needs 1.6.
>
> That said, we will continue to ship 1.6 since 3rd party apps may need
> it. We will however remove the alternatives for 1.6, so using them will
> require the user to manually set JAVA_HOME to
> /usr/lib/jvm/java-1.6.0..../ and call the java binary from that dir.
> This will prevent someone from accidentally switching the system
> alterne ative to 1.6 and having (1.7 built) apps fail.
>
Look into environment-modules as a possible aid to the end user :

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:EnvironmentModules

I've always wondered why we used alternatives for java when it seems like
it's a per user or per application setting rather than a per-host setting
anyway.


> Are there any major objections to the above?
>
Yeah, I'm with Peter Robinson that this change is coming too late in the
cycle. Alpha has already shipped. FESCo could disagree but it *must* go to
FESCo for them to give you permission.

> In the mean time, I am going to start building all java packages
> currently in F16 against 1.7 only to see the scope of changes that will
> be needed.
> to east
>
Do you need a separate build tag setup so you can do this testing without
disturbing normal builds?

-Toshio
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Old 08-26-2011, 04:00 PM
Toshio Kuratomi
 
Default Java 7 for Fedora 16

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 03:46:40PM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
>
> I think that would have to go to FESCo for approval or at least a
> decision, its a fairly major change to happen post alpha where all
> major changes should have landed already and all major mass rebuilds
> should have been done.
>
+1

At this point in the F16 cycle, you have to justify changes like this.
Coordinating changes is one of the things that we need to do to get the
distro out on a schedule without having bad feelings between package
maintainers.

-Toshio
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