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Old 06-24-2011, 09:52 PM
Simo Sorce
 
Default Trusted Boot in Fedora

On Fri, 2011-06-24 at 17:15 -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 17:09:22 -0400
> Simo Sorce <simo@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 2011-06-24 at 22:21 +0200, nodata wrote:
> > > 2. This seems like Trusted Computing, which got shot down in flames.
> >
> > Who shot it and why ?
> >
> > > Does TrustedBoot go against the core values of Fedora?
> >
> > Only if it is not under user control, otherwise it is a very useful
> > feature.
>
> Nevertheless, the feature page contains no documentation about what it
> actually is. Neither does the sourceforge.net page of the project.
>
> It seems like a reasonable request that this documentation be added.

I agree on this point.

Simo.

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Old 06-25-2011, 07:24 AM
JB
 
Default Trusted Boot in Fedora

Rahul Sundaram <metherid <at> gmail.com> writes:

>
> On 06/24/2011 09:55 PM, Clyde E. Kunkel wrote
> > Rahul,
> >
> > Seems he is using references to support contentions...like a scholarly
> > journal article. With respect, just as you are free to criticize on
> > these mailing lists, he is free to speak on them as long as he follows
> > proper netiquette.
>
> The proper etiquette would be to use the reference once and state the
> contention along with it. Not merely copy paste wikipedia article
> content multiple times in a thread especially
> ...

Now you know what it is ...

> when you are confusing remote attestation with remote access.

I think you are in over your head ...

> What am I suggesting is a more effective way. and less noise.

Exactly, that's all you do ... your thought added value in the thread is zero.

Colorado Cops Arrest Man Who Hid Inside Toilet Tank At Yoga Festival

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/toilet/colorado-toilet-tank-arrest-649031

JB


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Old 06-25-2011, 08:13 AM
Camilo Mesias
 
Default Trusted Boot in Fedora

Hi,

On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 5:09 PM, Simo Sorce <simo@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-06-24 at 22:21 +0200, nodata wrote:
>> 2. This seems like Trusted Computing, which got shot down in flames.
>
> Who shot it and why ?

I don't know about Trusted Computing but this does remind me of the
Pentium III processor serial number that wasn't well received - even
though in theory it had what many people would consider a reasonable
purpose. In other words, tracking down CPUs that were sometimes stolen
by the truckload.

>> Does TrustedBoot go against the core values of Fedora?
>
> Only if it is not under user control, otherwise it is a very useful
> feature.

In a sense, part of it isn't under user control. There is a secret in
there, held against the user, and possibly known by the manufacturer
or other third parties. There is also a black box of code that could
do anything. I'm not really that paranoid but it is worth considering
the worst case, just as a theoretical possibility. What if the device
became standard by virtue of being bundled with every consumer
device... what if it became crucial to system operation somehow...
what if that device could then be disabled remotely, either rendered
useless by the secret being disclosed, or some unknown functionality
could be triggered in that signed but opaque blob of code.

Already there are systems that have whitelisted hardware (eg. wireless
cards in netbooks) and the BIOS polices the presence of the right
device. If you make unauthorised modifications to the BIOS, you can
install any compatible wireless card (or WWAN device). BUT if the BIOS
was signed and loaded by a trusted method, this option would not be
available.

Apart from that there is the aspect of identification - this is as
good a way of identifying a system as the processor serial number was.

I think it is worth including in open source systems, but only so the
devices and methods can be better understood, and probably turned off
/ disabled at the earliest opportunity if there isn't a compelling
benefit to having them.

-Cam
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:04 PM
Kevin Fenzi
 
Default Trusted Boot in Fedora

...snip...

Can we move this back to technical, Fedora development related
discussion?

thanks,

kevin
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Old 06-25-2011, 04:26 PM
Camilo Mesias
 
Default Trusted Boot in Fedora

On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Kevin Fenzi <kevin@scrye.com> wrote:
> ...snip...
>
> Can we move this back to technical, Fedora development related
> discussion?

I am slightly disappointed with this response, after all, to quote the
original message

"Fesco decided that we should probably have a broader discussion about
the topic"

I take it you / FESCO have had enough now?

-Cam
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Old 06-25-2011, 04:36 PM
Peter Robinson
 
Default Trusted Boot in Fedora

On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Camilo Mesias <camilo@mesias.co.uk> wrote:

On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Kevin Fenzi <kevin@scrye.com> wrote:

> ...snip...

>

> Can we move this back to technical, Fedora development related

> discussion?



I am slightly disappointed with this response, after all, to quote the

original message



"Fesco decided that we should probably have a broader discussion about

the topic"



I read that as a broader technical discussion. As has been mentioned in the thread its not compulsory, it doesn't restrict people from running custom kernels as always and you need to have the appropriate hardware to make use of the feature anyway. I personally welcome the feature. I have hardware that would allow me to use the feature and I would like to know if something other than me modifies my kernel and core environment and to restrict the ability to boot if that is the case so I can verify what has changed.


Peter


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Old 06-25-2011, 04:41 PM
Kevin Fenzi
 
Default Trusted Boot in Fedora

On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 17:26:08 +0100
Camilo Mesias <camilo@mesias.co.uk> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Kevin Fenzi <kevin@scrye.com> wrote:
> > ...snip...
> >
> > Can we move this back to technical, Fedora development related
> > discussion?
>
> I am slightly disappointed with this response, after all, to quote the
> original message
>
> "Fesco decided that we should probably have a broader discussion about
> the topic"
>
> I take it you / FESCO have had enough now?

No. I am saying that I personally have had enough of personal attacks
and side discussions on quoting styles.

I welcome posts back on the technical topic of trusted boot.

kevin
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Old 06-25-2011, 04:52 PM
Chris Adams
 
Default Trusted Boot in Fedora

Once upon a time, Camilo Mesias <camilo@mesias.co.uk> said:
> In a sense, part of it isn't under user control. There is a secret in
> there, held against the user, and possibly known by the manufacturer
> or other third parties. There is also a black box of code that could
> do anything.

You already have that; it is called System Management Mode.

> I'm not really that paranoid but it is worth considering
> the worst case, just as a theoretical possibility. What if the device
> became standard by virtue of being bundled with every consumer
> device... what if it became crucial to system operation somehow...

Fedora supporting or not supporting it will have zero impact on that
outcome happening or not happening.

> Already there are systems that have whitelisted hardware (eg. wireless
> cards in netbooks) and the BIOS polices the presence of the right
> device. If you make unauthorised modifications to the BIOS, you can
> install any compatible wireless card (or WWAN device). BUT if the BIOS
> was signed and loaded by a trusted method, this option would not be
> available.

All of that is pre-kernel, so either can or cannot happen no matter what
Fedora does. None of that has any bearing on the technical discussion
about whether Fedora should or should not include this functionality in
the installer.

I think there is some misunderstanding about what the discussion is
supposed to be about. The supporting open source code is already in
Fedora. The feature request is simply to modify grubby/anaconda to set
up the boot entries to include the support by default (or when the
hardware is found).
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Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
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Old 06-25-2011, 05:06 PM
Bernd Stramm
 
Default Trusted Boot in Fedora

On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 10:41:36 -0600
Kevin Fenzi <kevin@scrye.com> wrote:


> I welcome posts back on the technical topic of trusted boot.

Right.

So can we have specifics about what it's good for? Not how it is
implemented, but what the purposes are.

And who the "trusted" entities are (can be) in the chain of trust.

Those sorts of technical topics would be interesting.

>
> kevin



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Old 06-25-2011, 05:25 PM
inode0
 
Default Trusted Boot in Fedora

On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Bernd Stramm <bernd.stramm@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 10:41:36 -0600
> Kevin Fenzi <kevin@scrye.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I welcome posts back on the technical topic of trusted boot.
>
> Right.
>
> So can we have specifics about what it's good for? Not how it is
> implemented, but what the purposes are.
>
> And who the "trusted" entities are (can be) in the chain of trust.
>
> Those sorts of technical topics would be interesting.

I agree this would be interesting.

On a more practical level I'd like to hear with more specifics about
how this fits the definition of a feature as stated here

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Policy/Definitions

Does it meet any of the points 1, 2, or 4?

If it is proposed as a feature based on either or both of points 3 and
5 has marketing or anyone outside of FESCo been involved in deciding
whether this meets those requirements from their perspective? I ask
this because points 3 and 5 don't seem to be based on anything
technical.

John
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