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Old 06-17-2011, 10:46 AM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On 06/17/2011 03:59 PM, Henrik Wejdmark wrote:
> As has been stated earlier in this thread, having the hot spot in the top
> left corner and categories far right causes a lot of mouse movements. Common
> apps in the dash only opens the first instance, after that it switches to
> the existing instance, effectively doubling the functionality from the
> activities window.

I use Windows key and control + click for these things correspondingly.
Middle click launches the app in a new workspace which is convenient as
well

> I'll end my argument here, and Gnome3 is the reason I'm now evaluating other
> DEs and distros.

You are free to do that.


Rahul
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:48 AM
Mathieu Bridon
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 12:20 +0200, Henrik Wejdmark wrote:
> > > Since you recommend not using the application menu, in other words,
> > > you agree that the application menu is useless?
> > >
> >
> > It is useful when you are looking for something and you don't know what
> > exactly it is. In that case, it is much much better then the previous
> menus,
> > because you have nice overview on one page and moreover you have the
> > possibility to filter by groups for example.
>
> On my desktop it's not on "one" page, it's a mile long listing so you get no
> overview at all. In Gnome2 at least all the apps are categorized. If the
> graphical user interface _requires_ you to use the keyboard to type the
> command

It doesn't require you to type the command.

You can search for "bro" and among the results will be Nautilus and
Firefox (hint: Gnome Shell also searches in the application description,
and both are "bro"wsers).


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Old 06-17-2011, 11:02 AM
"Richard W.M. Jones"
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 06:48:14PM +0800, Mathieu Bridon wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 12:20 +0200, Henrik Wejdmark wrote:
> > > > Since you recommend not using the application menu, in other words,
> > > > you agree that the application menu is useless?
> > > >
> > >
> > > It is useful when you are looking for something and you don't know what
> > > exactly it is. In that case, it is much much better then the previous
> > menus,
> > > because you have nice overview on one page and moreover you have the
> > > possibility to filter by groups for example.
> >
> > On my desktop it's not on "one" page, it's a mile long listing so you get no
> > overview at all. In Gnome2 at least all the apps are categorized. If the
> > graphical user interface _requires_ you to use the keyboard to type the
> > command
>
> It doesn't require you to type the command.
>
> You can search for "bro" and among the results will be Nautilus and
> Firefox (hint: Gnome Shell also searches in the application description,
> and both are "bro"wsers).

I can't believe real usability testing was done on the final version
of GNOME 3. I keep hearing about all these completely undiscoverable
keyboard shortcuts that appear to be necessary to use GNOME 3 with any
sort of effectiveness. When I struggled with GNOME 3 for about a week
I didn't discover or use any keyboard shortcuts.

Rich.

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Old 06-17-2011, 11:02 AM
Vt Ondruch
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

Dne 17.6.2011 12:29, Ralf Corsepius napsal(a):
> On 06/17/2011 12:16 PM, Vt Ondruch wrote:
>> Dne 17.6.2011 11:57, Henrik Wejdmark napsal(a):
>> It is useful when you are looking for something and you don't know what
>> exactly it is. In that case, it is much much better then the previous
>> menus, because you have nice overview on one page and moreover you have
>> the possibility to filter by groups for example.
> I disgree.
>
> With F14/gnome2 you clicked on "Applications", then moved the mouse down
> the menu and navigated through the submenues by hovering the cursor over
> them. When doing so, you were presented tooltips outlining the purpose
> of the apps. All this required the mouse/trackpad to move for only very
> small distances.
>
> With F15/gnome3 you are presented a pane of icons with
> non-self-explanatory names, stretched over many screen, no tooltips, etc.
> The distances a mouse had to move are much longer than they used to be.
>
> The symbol-grounding issues (Which group might the app I am searching
> for be classified under?) is basically the same in both approaches.
>
> Ralf
>
>

Well if you don't know what you have installed in your computer, and
especially if you have installed everything, because one cannot know
when you will need it, and you have no keyboard, no mouse, no
touchscreen, just crappy touchpad, then I agree and I am sorry, no
modern DE can work for you.

Vit
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Old 06-17-2011, 11:17 AM
Dennis Jacobfeuerborn
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On 06/17/2011 01:02 PM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 06:48:14PM +0800, Mathieu Bridon wrote:
>> On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 12:20 +0200, Henrik Wejdmark wrote:
>>>>> Since you recommend not using the application menu, in other words,
>>>>> you agree that the application menu is useless?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is useful when you are looking for something and you don't know what
>>>> exactly it is. In that case, it is much much better then the previous
>>> menus,
>>>> because you have nice overview on one page and moreover you have the
>>>> possibility to filter by groups for example.
>>>
>>> On my desktop it's not on "one" page, it's a mile long listing so you get no
>>> overview at all. In Gnome2 at least all the apps are categorized. If the
>>> graphical user interface _requires_ you to use the keyboard to type the
>>> command
>>
>> It doesn't require you to type the command.
>>
>> You can search for "bro" and among the results will be Nautilus and
>> Firefox (hint: Gnome Shell also searches in the application description,
>> and both are "bro"wsers).
>
> I can't believe real usability testing was done on the final version
> of GNOME 3. I keep hearing about all these completely undiscoverable
> keyboard shortcuts that appear to be necessary to use GNOME 3 with any
> sort of effectiveness. When I struggled with GNOME 3 for about a week
> I didn't discover or use any keyboard shortcuts.

I think what is required is an application that starts when the desktop is
launched for the first time and that offers the user a short introduction
to the basic principles of the desktop.
Easy discoverability and good usability may sometimes go hand in hand but
also at times are mutual exclusive. Having a short introductory "pamphlet"
would help the user understand the basics without resorting to awkward
tool-tips or pop-ups to nudge the user in the right direction.

Regards,
Dennis
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Old 06-17-2011, 11:39 AM
Pdraig Brady
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On 17/06/11 12:17, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote:
> On 06/17/2011 01:02 PM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
>> I can't believe real usability testing was done on the final version
>> of GNOME 3. I keep hearing about all these completely undiscoverable
>> keyboard shortcuts that appear to be necessary to use GNOME 3 with any
>> sort of effectiveness. When I struggled with GNOME 3 for about a week
>> I didn't discover or use any keyboard shortcuts.
>
> I think what is required is an application that starts when the desktop is
> launched for the first time and that offers the user a short introduction
> to the basic principles of the desktop.
> Easy discoverability and good usability may sometimes go hand in hand but
> also at times are mutual exclusive. Having a short introductory "pamphlet"
> would help the user understand the basics without resorting to awkward
> tool-tips or pop-ups to nudge the user in the right direction.

KISS. F1 should launch the "help app" by default.
It's configured to do so, but doesn't. I presume there's a bug for that.
After a couple of days I typed "help" in the search box and was enlightened.
This help does have an intro section, but it's long winded.
There should be a TL;DR section presented first with basic navigation and shortcuts.

cheers,
Pdraig.
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Old 06-17-2011, 11:43 AM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On 06/17/2011 12:48 PM, Mathieu Bridon wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 12:20 +0200, Henrik Wejdmark wrote:

> You can search for "bro" and among the results will be Nautilus and
> Firefox (hint: Gnome Shell also searches in the application description,
> and both are "bro"wsers).
A "keyword search" is appropriate when you already know what you are
looking for but not if you only have "fuzzy imagination" about what you
are looking for.

That said "keyword search" can't replace "extended browsing" (such as
gnome 2 supplied through tooltips).

Or differently: How are newcomers or users who are looking for an
application to perform an infrequent task expected find out what an
application does rsp. which application is hiding underneath an icon
with Gnome 3?

Requiring users to launch all of them (which seems to be Gnome 3's
philosophy, AFAIS) definitely is not the solution.

Ralf





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Old 06-17-2011, 12:01 PM
Evandro Giovanini
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

Em Sex, 2011-06-17 s 13:43 +0200, Ralf Corsepius escreveu:
> On 06/17/2011 12:48 PM, Mathieu Bridon wrote:
> > On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 12:20 +0200, Henrik Wejdmark wrote:
>
> > You can search for "bro" and among the results will be Nautilus and
> > Firefox (hint: Gnome Shell also searches in the application description,
> > and both are "bro"wsers).
> A "keyword search" is appropriate when you already know what you are
> looking for but not if you only have "fuzzy imagination" about what you
> are looking for.
>
> That said "keyword search" can't replace "extended browsing" (such as
> gnome 2 supplied through tooltips).
>
> Or differently: How are newcomers or users who are looking for an
> application to perform an infrequent task expected find out what an
> application does rsp. which application is hiding underneath an icon
> with Gnome 3?
>
> Requiring users to launch all of them (which seems to be Gnome 3's
> philosophy, AFAIS) definitely is not the solution.
>

I would argue that simply typing a keyword related to the task you're
trying to perform is far more effective and easier to use than manually
browsing a long list of applications artificially categorized, specially
in this age of users like my mom, who actually still types "hotmail" on
the web browser search bar in order to read her e-mail.

Evandro

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Old 06-17-2011, 12:59 PM
"Richard W.M. Jones"
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 09:01:57AM -0300, Evandro Giovanini wrote:
> I would argue that simply typing a keyword related to the task you're
> trying to perform is far more effective and easier to use than manually
> browsing a long list of applications artificially categorized, specially
> in this age of users like my mom, who actually still types "hotmail" on
> the web browser search bar in order to read her e-mail.

Google *is* the web's command line. So is GNOME 3 it would appear ...

Whether any of this helps new users is something you can only find out
by frequent testing on new users.

Rich.

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Old 06-17-2011, 02:04 PM
Bernd Stramm
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 19:33:18 +0900
夜神 岩男 <supergiantpotato@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:


> Considering the frequent calls of "Gnome 3 has failed at its task" or
> the "GUI has failed if the user must ____" makes me wonder: Where is
> the task definition or specification against which the implementation
> has failed?
>
> "Doesn't live up to my expectation" is very different from "Doesn't
> comply with spec" and both are different from "Is a bad design".

How about a spec then of what Gnome3 was trying to achiece, and how
about those who like it telling us how Gnome3 achieved those things?

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