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Old 06-17-2011, 09:36 AM
Vít Ondruch
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

Dne 17.6.2011 11:14, Ralf Corsepius napsal(a):
> On 06/17/2011 10:56 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> Adam Williamson wrote:
>>> This is a common misapprehension, but it's not true. The reason for the
>>> large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user
>>> research (yes, really!) and found that many people had significant
>>> trouble navigating the typical Windows / GNOME 2 nested menu system full
>>> of wide-but-short entries. They would lose levels in the nesting by
>>> moving the mouse a bit wrong. They would launch the wrong thing because
>>> the target area was too short. This was especially pronounced with poor
>>> pointing devices - particularly cheap trackpads on cheap laptops.
> Rest assured, it is not ... esp. on cheap trackpads on cheap laptops.
>
> With Gnome3 you 1stly have to tick on "Applications" (located left top
> on the screen), then hit this tiny scroll bar located ca. 1 in/2cm left
> of the right screen (not an easy task - Requires travelling almost the
> whole screen), then to navigate down several pages to find the
> applications your are looking for. When doing so, you often you are
> getting lost in non-self explanatory icons, with cryptic icon-names
> without tool tips, i.e you are not finding the app you are looking for.
>
> When working inside of another window, you now 1st have to switch the
> screen (to the Application screen), where formerly a simple "click into
> the toplevel menu" was required.
>

The workflow is:
1) Move the mouse to the to left corner (move is enough, you don't have
to click. You even can drag and drop through activities, so learn to not
click there.)
2) Type on the keyboard few character of the application name you want
to run, e.g. "cal" and on your screen will be filtered "Calculator" and
"LibreOffice Calc"
3) Click on the appropriate icon.

Or alternatively:

1) Move the mouse to the to left corner (move is enough, you don't have
to click. You even can drag and drop through activities, so learn to not
click there.)
2) Click on your pined favorite application icon.

If you go "Application" and try to find there you favorite app, then I
have to congratulate to your patience. That was always the biggest pain
of former DE to remember "Oh, where is the terminal, is it in
accessories, system management or other group?" or "Is the browser
office application or internet?". To be honest, I don't care.

>>> The Giant Grid O' Icons is navigable with a much higher success rate.
> I disagree - It's one of the aspects I am blaming Gnome 3 for to be
> lacking of SW ergonomy.
>
> A "simple application pane" is suitable for "kiosk-style" (smartphone)
> installations with only a very small set of apps installed, but is
> unsuitable for a "multipurpose desktop" with 100s or 1000s of apps
> installed (such as home installations or developers' installations).
>
> Ralf

May be you are not following the development of other desktops, but for
example Windows 7 has the same principle. Open the start menu, type the
application name and the filtered list appears. The only difference that
windows shows by default icons of most favorite applications where in
Gnome 3 you have pin them. But this is more or less similar to W7
taskbar on the other hand.

So in conclusion it is not that surprising at the end, that W7 and G3
are pretty similar. Also the icons are getting bigger on both platforms.

Vit
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Old 06-17-2011, 09:55 AM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On 06/17/2011 11:36 AM, Vít Ondruch wrote:
> Dne 17.6.2011 11:14, Ralf Corsepius napsal(a):
>> On 06/17/2011 10:56 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>>> Adam Williamson wrote:
>>>> This is a common misapprehension, but it's not true. The reason for the
>>>> large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user
>>>> research (yes, really!) and found that many people had significant
>>>> trouble navigating the typical Windows / GNOME 2 nested menu system full
>>>> of wide-but-short entries. They would lose levels in the nesting by
>>>> moving the mouse a bit wrong. They would launch the wrong thing because
>>>> the target area was too short. This was especially pronounced with poor
>>>> pointing devices - particularly cheap trackpads on cheap laptops.
>> Rest assured, it is not ... esp. on cheap trackpads on cheap laptops.

> The workflow is:
> 1) Move the mouse to the to left corner (move is enough, you don't have
> to click. You even can drag and drop through activities, so learn to not
> click there.)
Apart of the fact, "track pad click" are disabled by default in F15's
Gnome3 (IMO: silly - They are enabled in Ubuntu), the click isn't my point.

With Gnome3, if only using a mouse/trackpad/pointing device, you are
travelling very long distances on screen - Much longer distances than in
Gnome 2 - This is a problem with "cheap trackpads" (My F15 test system
is a cheap, 1st generation atom-based netbook)

> May be you are not following the development of other desktops, but for
> example Windows 7 has the same principle.
Correct. I am not using Windows nor Mac OS X.

> Open the start menu, type the
> application name and the filtered list appears. The only difference that
> windows shows by default icons of most favorite applications where in
> Gnome 3 you have pin them. But this is more or less similar to W7
> taskbar on the other hand.
>
> So in conclusion it is not that surprising at the end, that W7 and G3
> are pretty similar. Also the icons are getting bigger on both platforms.
Well, it's obvious to me Gnome 3 is trying to immitate W7, OS X and iOS,
but ... may-be you may want to think about why users are not using these
and are using Linux instead?

One of the reasons used to be the Gnome2 DE being different from these
rsp. these other OSes not meeting this user's groups demands.

In other words: IMO, due the way Gnome3 is taking, Gnome 3 has thrown
away one of the key-advantages it had offered (and has become a W7 etc.
immitation cult) and thus has become non-interesting to at least some
Linux-users (e.g. me).

That said, IMO, Gnome 3 should be added a "classic" GUI-design, with
toplevel menus/cascaded, file-browser etc.

To me personally, Gnome 3 is the primary cause for currently evalutating
other distros and other DEs, and the primary (the secondary is systemd)
cause for not upgrading to Fedora 15.

Ralf

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Old 06-17-2011, 10:06 AM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On 06/17/2011 02:26 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Adam Williamson wrote:
>> This is a common misapprehension, but it's not true. The reason for the
>> large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user
>> research (yes, really!) and found that many people had significant
>> trouble navigating the typical Windows / GNOME 2 nested menu system full
>> of wide-but-short entries. They would lose levels in the nesting by
>> moving the mouse a bit wrong. They would launch the wrong thing because
>> the target area was too short. This was especially pronounced with poor
>> pointing devices - particularly cheap trackpads on cheap laptops.
>>
>> The Giant Grid O' Icons is navigable with a much higher success rate.
> There are less radical solutions for these problems though, see e.g. KDE's
> Kickoff menu. (But I can't get used even to that, I use the classic menu
> which KDE Plasma also offers.)

I wonder why you recommend solutions you can't even get used to. In
terms of usability, it is not clear to me kickoff is doing a better job
at all. It is a rather convoluted way of organizing menu items and I
had to switch it off and use the classic menu instead. I have used both
and I found the GNOME 3 menu interface more familiar and less radical in
fact.

Rahul

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Old 06-17-2011, 10:31 AM
Evandro Giovanini
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

Em Sex, 2011-06-17 às 11:55 +0200, Ralf Corsepius escreveu:
> On 06/17/2011 11:36 AM, Vít Ondruch wrote:
> > Dne 17.6.2011 11:14, Ralf Corsepius napsal(a):
> >> On 06/17/2011 10:56 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> >>> Adam Williamson wrote:
> >>>> This is a common misapprehension, but it's not true. The reason for the
> >>>> large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user
> >>>> research (yes, really!) and found that many people had significant
> >>>> trouble navigating the typical Windows / GNOME 2 nested menu system full
> >>>> of wide-but-short entries. They would lose levels in the nesting by
> >>>> moving the mouse a bit wrong. They would launch the wrong thing because
> >>>> the target area was too short. This was especially pronounced with poor
> >>>> pointing devices - particularly cheap trackpads on cheap laptops.
> >> Rest assured, it is not ... esp. on cheap trackpads on cheap laptops.
>
> > The workflow is:
> > 1) Move the mouse to the to left corner (move is enough, you don't have
> > to click. You even can drag and drop through activities, so learn to not
> > click there.)
> Apart of the fact, "track pad click" are disabled by default in F15's
> Gnome3 (IMO: silly - They are enabled in Ubuntu), the click isn't my point.
>
> With Gnome3, if only using a mouse/trackpad/pointing device, you are
> travelling very long distances on screen - Much longer distances than in
> Gnome 2 - This is a problem with "cheap trackpads" (My F15 test system
> is a cheap, 1st generation atom-based netbook)
>
> > May be you are not following the development of other desktops, but for
> > example Windows 7 has the same principle.
> Correct. I am not using Windows nor Mac OS X.
>
> > Open the start menu, type the
> > application name and the filtered list appears. The only difference that
> > windows shows by default icons of most favorite applications where in
> > Gnome 3 you have pin them. But this is more or less similar to W7
> > taskbar on the other hand.
> >
> > So in conclusion it is not that surprising at the end, that W7 and G3
> > are pretty similar. Also the icons are getting bigger on both platforms.
> Well, it's obvious to me Gnome 3 is trying to immitate W7, OS X and iOS,
> but ... may-be you may want to think about why users are not using these
> and are using Linux instead?
>
> One of the reasons used to be the Gnome2 DE being different from these
> rsp. these other OSes not meeting this user's groups demands.
>
> In other words: IMO, due the way Gnome3 is taking, Gnome 3 has thrown
> away one of the key-advantages it had offered (and has become a W7 etc.
> immitation cult) and thus has become non-interesting to at least some
> Linux-users (e.g. me).
>
> That said, IMO, Gnome 3 should be added a "classic" GUI-design, with
> toplevel menus/cascaded, file-browser etc.
>
> To me personally, Gnome 3 is the primary cause for currently evalutating
> other distros and other DEs, and the primary (the secondary is systemd)
> cause for not upgrading to Fedora 15.
>

I'm not really sure I get what you're asking for here. GNOME 3 does have
the "classic" (Win95-like) design installed by default and all you have
to do is enable fallback mode in order to use it.

In addition to that the GNOME Shell is highly customizable and you can
have a traditional application menu right on the top menu bar if you'd
like. You can check out the extensions available in Fedora, the ones
here [1] and several others you can search on Google. The GNOME
developers are also working on a website to make installing and managing
extensions as easy as it is with Firefox.

Evandro

[1]. http://intgat.tigress.co.uk/rmy/extensions/index.html


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Old 06-17-2011, 11:53 AM
Domingo Becker
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

2011/6/17 Rahul Sundaram <metherid@gmail.com>:
> On 06/17/2011 03:59 PM, Henrik Wejdmark wrote:
>> As has been stated earlier in this thread, having the hot spot in the top
>> left corner and categories far right causes a lot of mouse movements. Common
>> apps in the dash only opens the first instance, after that it switches to
>> the existing instance, effectively doubling the functionality from the
>> activities window.
>
> I use Windows key and control + click for these things correspondingly.
> Middle click launches the app in a new workspace which is convenient as
> well
>

The shortest way is by using keyboard, as Rahul says:

1. Press the key between Ctrl and Alt.
2. Type in what you search, at least the first letters. After that,
some icons are shown and you may use up and down arrow keys to select.
3. After selecting the application you want, press Enter, and that's it.

Access through keyboard was something missing in previous GNOME. End
users go faster if they only use keyboard (of course, the program and
the desktop environment should be prepared for that).

I forced the change from F14 to F15 in some production desktops, and
this is what end-users said to me: it's a lot faster, it's different,
but a lot faster. It's just a matter to get used to it.

I was sceptic the first time, and probably I would have said the same
as first posts in this thread, but end users have the last and
valuable word, and nobody can't deny it.

I'm just commenting what I saw in an F15 deployment in production.

kind regards

Domingo Becker
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Old 06-17-2011, 12:29 PM
Emmanuel Seyman
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

* Domingo Becker [17/06/2011 14:21] :
>
> Access through keyboard was something missing in previous GNOME. End
> users go faster if they only use keyboard (of course, the program and
> the desktop environment should be prepared for that).

Agreed. Before installing F15, I was sceptic about having to search for
applications. After using it for a week, I can't imagine going back to a
menu-based solution.

Emmanuel

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Old 06-17-2011, 12:53 PM
"Jared K. Smith"
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 5:14 AM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203@freenet.de> wrote:
> With Gnome3 you 1stly have to tick on "Applications" (located left top
> on the screen), then hit this tiny scroll bar located ca. 1 in/2cm left
> of the right screen (not an easy task - Requires travelling almost the
> whole screen), then to navigate down several pages to find the
> applications your are looking for. When doing so, you often you are
> getting lost in non-self explanatory icons, with cryptic icon-names
> without tool tips, i.e you are not finding the app you are looking for.

Actually, there's an easier way. Press the Super key (typically the
one with the logo of another operating system on it), and start typing
the name or description of the app you want to launch. I almost never
spend time scrolling through the list of applications.

--
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Fedora Project Leader
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Old 06-17-2011, 01:21 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On 06/17/2011 02:53 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 5:14 AM, Ralf Corsepius<rc040203@freenet.de> wrote:
>> With Gnome3 you 1stly have to tick on "Applications" (located left top
>> on the screen), then hit this tiny scroll bar located ca. 1 in/2cm left
>> of the right screen (not an easy task - Requires travelling almost the
>> whole screen), then to navigate down several pages to find the
>> applications your are looking for. When doing so, you often you are
>> getting lost in non-self explanatory icons, with cryptic icon-names
>> without tool tips, i.e you are not finding the app you are looking for.
>
> Actually, there's an easier way. Press the Super key (typically the
> one with the logo of another operating system on it), and start typing
> the name or description of the app you want to launch. I almost never
> spend time scrolling through the list of applications.

... you mean by "holy ghost intuition", feel tempted to press a key to
access a hidden feature, where once was a simple feature?

Ralf
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Old 06-17-2011, 01:28 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On 06/17/2011 06:51 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> ... you mean by "holy ghost intuition", feel tempted to press a key to
> access a hidden feature, where once was a simple feature?

Alt+F1 which was the shortcut for accessing the menu still works. For
GUI users, they just hit the hot corner. For anyone who is more
through, read the help or cheatsheat

Rahul
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Old 06-17-2011, 01:38 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On 06/17/2011 03:28 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 06/17/2011 06:51 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> ... you mean by "holy ghost intuition", feel tempted to press a key to
>> access a hidden feature, where once was a simple feature?
>
> Alt+F1 which was the shortcut for accessing the menu still works. For
> GUI users, they just hit the hot corner. For anyone who is more
> through, read the help or cheatsheat

Or leave gnome 3 rsp Fedora alone.

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