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Old 06-13-2011, 06:36 PM
Reindl Harald
 
Default conclusion: F15 / systemd / user-experience

first sorry for some bad words from mine, but this is how i feel in a situation not
knowing how to act since upgraded short ago to F14 in the hope get my energy
refreshed staying there for some months and now realizing i will newer get new intel
hardware well supportd on it
______________________

please respect that some people are having really troubles with their health
(what is happening to me this time in a way i wish not for my worst enemy),
trying to make a great job at the same time as far as it is possible

many of them (as i) have taken responsible for a lot of systems running really well with
F14 and are having simply not the mental and physical energy to switch their whole
setup in an invasive way

but they are forced to do this because they needed new hardware and if you buy hardware
now which should work 5 years or longer you will take the latest generation :-(
______________________

REALLY:

Fedora should consider a not so invasive way like KDE4, GNOME3, systemd in an
early release especially for updated systems because what sometimes happens
here is that features are included at a time some people are hoping they are
ready and on the other hand kernel-updates like for F6/F7/F8 are stopped
in the latest releases -> 2.6.38 would support new intel-network cards

what after that happens with power-users which are not only insert a CD and
taking all as pre-configured is anger, frustration, fear....

try to fully support their configurations for two releases and only install KDE4,
GNOME3, systemd on new setups as default will bring you a real userbase to optimize
things without destroy the experience of users which are loving Fedora since "Fedora
Core 3" and showing their wish to have a little time to get warm with new features
without the feeling "take it or leave it" is respected

as said: i love the idea of systemd and i am sure this will finally be a great thing,
but we all know there are bugs in new and complex software - so if Fedora would try
not be so invasive to existing setups peopole with more than one machine have the option
to wait some weeks/months before the first after-release bugs are fixed while they can
update on new hardware for several reasons (Sandy Brdige network/graphics) without


Am 13.06.2011 09:47, schrieb Kevin Kofler:

> For KDE, it was just plain impossible to support both 3.5 and 4.0

and so it was the wrong decision ship KDE4.0 which was really unusable
and upstream declared only for developers! before 4.2 KDE4 was buggy
like hell and missing a lot of options

nearly the same happens now with GNOME3 and is a spit in the face for
many users which are switched from KDE4.0 to GNOME because KDE4.0 was
not useable for them

> in the same distribution without violating the FHS.

interesting argument
where do you find /run in the FHS

<anger>
oh i frgot this is for systemd and tech reasons
needed which are more important as the users which
have to live with "your" decisions....
</anger>




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Old 06-13-2011, 07:02 PM
Brian Wheeler
 
Default conclusion: F15 / systemd / user-experience

On Mon, 2011-06-13 at 20:36 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
> first sorry for some bad words from mine, but this is how i feel in a situation not
> knowing how to act since upgraded short ago to F14 in the hope get my energy
> refreshed staying there for some months and now realizing i will newer get new intel
> hardware well supportd on it
> ______________________
>
> please respect that some people are having really troubles with their health
> (what is happening to me this time in a way i wish not for my worst enemy),
> trying to make a great job at the same time as far as it is possible
>
> many of them (as i) have taken responsible for a lot of systems running really well with
> F14 and are having simply not the mental and physical energy to switch their whole
> setup in an invasive way
>
> but they are forced to do this because they needed new hardware and if you buy hardware
> now which should work 5 years or longer you will take the latest generation :-(
> ______________________
>

As others have said: you chose the wrong tool for the job. Fedora
isn't for running on anything you want to keep stable in service for a
long time. Heck, even the
http://fedoraproject.org/en/about-fedora
page explicitly says that fedora devs "don't mind shaking up the status
quo, when it means we can more effectively move free software forward"

So maybe you should consider switching your servers to a RHEL 6 (or
clone) so they'll be stable and have new hardware support. Heck, even
for my home servers I don't run fedora because shaking it up every 6
months or so is a pain...I can't imagine trying it on production
servers.

Brian

[For the record, I like systemd, but I couldn't stomach Gnome3. So the
F15 upgrade was a mixed bag for me. Switched to XFCE and I'm happy
again]


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Old 06-13-2011, 07:02 PM
Andreas Tunek
 
Default conclusion: F15 / systemd / user-experience

> but they are forced to do this because they needed new hardware and if you buy hardware
> now which should work 5 years or longer you will take the latest generation :-(


You always have a choice which hw to buy. Sometimes you have to buy hw
to support the sw you want to run. If you want to run F14 you should
buy hw that supports F14 (or hw that F14 supports, whichever you want
to put it).

/Andreas Tunek
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:49 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default conclusion: F15 / systemd / user-experience

Reindl Harald wrote:
> Fedora should consider a not so invasive way like KDE4, GNOME3, systemd in
> an early release especially for updated systems because what sometimes
> happens here is that features are included at a time some people are
> hoping they are ready and on the other hand kernel-updates like for
> F6/F7/F8 are stopped in the latest releases -> 2.6.38 would support new
> intel-network cards

I also miss those kernel upgrades. I think we've become much too
conservative.

> and so it was the wrong decision ship KDE4.0 which was really unusable
> and upstream declared only for developers! before 4.2 KDE4 was buggy
> like hell and missing a lot of options

All this "4.0 is only for developers" messaging came way too late. We had
already worked hard on making everything work with 4.0 in pre-F9 Rawhide at
that point. In addition, the messaging back then was that 4.1 would be the
general public release. So our plan was, we'd push 4.1 as an update ASAP;
until then, Fedora 8 stayed supported (and as you wrote above, it did get
kernel upgrades for hardware support). What we couldn't know is that:
* 4.1 would also get redefined as "only for developers". This only happened
several weeks after Fedora 9 was released. That was well past the point of
no return.
* 4.1 would trigger several showstopper regressions we had to fix before
pushing it as a stable update.
* There would be a major Fedora infrastructure outage due to a security
breach which ended up delaying the 4.1 update for 2-3 more weeks when our
regression tracker was finally clear.

We also worked really hard to make 4.0 work as well as possible. I made
several (completely unpaid!) 30+ hour days to build bugfix releases, fix
showstoppers etc. The other KDE SIG developers also worked for many hours on
that stuff. We were able to ship Fedora 9 with no true showstopper and we
fixed the most annoying bugs in updates before or within days of the
release.

In addition, a big part of the complaints about 4.0 was about missing
applications. We made sure the KDE 3 versions of those applications stayed
available and worked fine in a KDE 4 environment (also with some patching
where needed to provide proper integration, e.g. we patched Kile to use
Okular for PDF/PS/DVI previews, something that wouldn't have been possible
if we had been supporting the KDE 3 workspace as well), or in some cases got
a KDE 4 version in ASAP (e.g. I imported alpha/beta versions of Okteta, the
hex editor, as soon as it became available; I also ported Kompare to kdelibs
4 in time for 4.0.0, which got it resurrected upstream with me as the
maintainer).

We really did what we could to make KDE 4.0 not suck.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 06-14-2011, 12:19 AM
Reindl Harald
 
Default conclusion: F15 / systemd / user-experience

Am 14.06.2011 01:49, schrieb Kevin Kofler:
> I also miss those kernel upgrades. I think we've become much too
> conservative.

and the combination is which i really not understand

* kernel -> conservative
* kde4/gnome3/systemd -> go ahead with all consquences

and the kernel is really not a big deal because the updates
are normally not invasive


> All this "4.0 is only for developers" messaging came way too late. We had
> already worked hard on making everything work with 4.0 in pre-F9 Rawhide at
> that point.

the mistake happended long before!

as KDE4.0 was anounced for F9 nobody did know if they are
ready and which state kde4 would have in the first release

> We also worked really hard to make 4.0 work as well as possible. I made
> several (completely unpaid!) 30+ hour days to build bugfix releases, fix
> showstoppers etc. The other KDE SIG developers also worked for many hours on
> that stuff. We were able to ship Fedora 9 with no true showstopper and we
> fixed the most annoying bugs in updates before or within days of the
> release.

nobod said that there was no hard work

but is it really needed to decide major upgrades without knwoing
what state the software finally would have instead take a breath and
fixing existing bugs since every 6 months is a new release and no
reason to hurry

it would be really a godd idea to take every second release only
for bugfixing and kernel-upgrades for hardware-support and only
every econd release to bring new stuff - there are so many small
bugs and edges everywhere that there is no need for such a hurry



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Old 06-14-2011, 12:50 AM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default conclusion: F15 / systemd / user-experience

Reindl Harald wrote:
> as KDE4.0 was anounced for F9 nobody did know if they are
> ready and which state kde4 would have in the first release

We need to do some advance planning and development to provide a polished
release to our users, so we have to start importing prereleases of new
upstream software very early in the cycle, especially for a big change like
KDE 3→4. We have neither the infrastructure nor the human resources to do
this work on a separate development branch, so we have to do it in Rawhide,
at which point everything in Rawhide gets ported to the new technologies and
it's very hard to go back.

It is upstream's failure to not have communicated upfront that 4.0 would not
be a release they'd want shipped to end users. There were some developers
claiming it'd be a great new release with lots of new features they were
working on, and a few others merely cautioning that it'd be for "early
adopters" (whom Fedora users are expected to be). That "only for application
developers" claim came only later, when Rawhide was already upgraded to 4.0.
If the upstream developers had been less optimistic about their new release
right from the start, we might have taken a different decision.

That said, I actually think Fedora 9 turned out as a great release, KDE
4.0.3 wasn't quite as broken as some people (including some upstream
developers) were claiming, and KDE got better and better in updates.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 06-14-2011, 12:54 AM
Scott Schmit
 
Default conclusion: F15 / systemd / user-experience

On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 02:19:38AM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
> Am 14.06.2011 01:49, schrieb Kevin Kofler:
> > I also miss those kernel upgrades. I think we've become much too
> > conservative.
>
> and the combination is which i really not understand
>
> * kernel -> conservative
> * kde4/gnome3/systemd -> go ahead with all consquences

Not addressing specifically the issue with the kernel updates, but at
least in part, the answer is simple:
* Within a release, updates should try very hard to avoid breaking
things.
* Between releases, upgrades can change a lot. These changes are
advertised so that users can decide if/when they want to upgrade.

> and the kernel is really not a big deal because the updates
> are normally not invasive

Not in my experience--I have had on occasion crippling kernel bugs that
come and go from update to update (hangs with no oops recorded to the
log, for example). Thankfully, that's rare, but I'd argue that it's
*because of* that conservatism, not in spite of it.

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Old 06-14-2011, 04:57 AM
Genes MailLists
 
Default conclusion: F15 / systemd / user-experience

On 06/13/2011 08:54 PM, Scott Schmit wrote:

> Not addressing specifically the issue with the kernel updates, but at
> least in part, the answer is simple:
> * Within a release, updates should try very hard to avoid breaking
> things.
> * Between releases, upgrades can change a lot. These changes are
> advertised so that users can decide if/when they want to upgrade.
>
>> and the kernel is really not a big deal because the updates
>> are normally not invasive
>
> Not in my experience--I have had on occasion crippling kernel bugs that
> come and go from update to update (hangs with no oops recorded to the
> log, for example). Thankfully, that's rare, but I'd argue that it's
> *because of* that conservatism, not in spite of it.
>

The upstream kernel is a rolling release with Linus' law of protect
users as much as possible.

While a fresh released kernel in stable often gets a few updates and
fixes the .1 or .2 stable kernels are generally remarkably solid.

This is in large part attributable to the rolling release model.

Fedora could well benefit from switching to a rolling release model
as well (no not rawhide - a controlled rolling release much as the
kernel development follows).

gene
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:22 AM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default conclusion: F15 / systemd / user-experience

On 06/14/2011 10:27 AM, Genes MailLists wrote:
> The upstream kernel is a rolling release with Linus' law of protect
> users as much as possible.
>
> While a fresh released kernel in stable often gets a few updates and
> fixes the .1 or .2 stable kernels are generally remarkably solid.
>
> This is in large part attributable to the rolling release model.
>
> Fedora could well benefit from switching to a rolling release model
> as well (no not rawhide - a controlled rolling release much as the
> kernel development follows).

I don't think you can call it a rolling release unless you only count
Linus branch and discount others like Linux next tree and even that is a
stretch since the "rc" releases are essentially development snapshots
that incrementally move towards less changes and more stability exactly
like the alpha and beta releases and release candidates in a Linux
distribution .

Rahul
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:48 AM
"Andy Green (林安廸)"
 
Default conclusion: F15 / systemd / user-experience

On 06/14/2011 05:57 AM, Somebody in the thread at some point said:

> Fedora could well benefit from switching to a rolling release model
> as well (no not rawhide - a controlled rolling release much as the
> kernel development follows).

I've been living from rawhide on my main laptop for a few years, from my
POV the existing setup where rawhide never stops and it branches off
before the release is ideal already. I sometimes get the equivalent of
a "crossword puzzle" to do on the next boot after an update to get it up
again, but at least it keeps me aware of major developments.

Since the upstream projects never stop either, capturing that reality in
rawhide in packagable form as a first step all the time seems like it
must be part of a good solution.

BTW I am very happy someone is grasping the nettle of sysvinit, keep up
the good work everybody!

-Andy
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