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Old 06-13-2011, 07:47 AM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default WTF - SYSTEMD: Give us a option for upstart

Reindl Harald wrote:
> Am 13.06.2011 05:58, schrieb Kevin Kofler:
>> No, the choice of this kind of core under-the-hood system components
>> should be a decision of the distribution.
>
> thats freedom?

You have the freedom to fork Fedora. Good luck!

A distribution is about integration of different components, not about a
random hodegepodge of stuff which doesn't work together. You should not
expect all the software to cooperate with an obsolete init system. (In
particular, why should services have to ship legacy initscripts (or native
upstart configuration) along with the native systemd modules (which are
required for efficiency)? systemd is also going to take up more and more
roles in the very near future, e.g. replacing ConsoleKit.)

> and usually HE CAN NOT with the most new technologies introduced in Fedora
> the first two releases (PulseAudio, KDE 4.0...)

PulseAudio was actually replaceable when it was initially introduced. It
even still is to some extent. IMHO that only makes it harder to make things
just work.

For KDE, it was just plain impossible to support both 3.5 and 4.0 in the
same distribution without violating the FHS. All the other distributions
which offer both versions of KDE are installing at least one to a non-FHS
prefix. Supporting only 4.0 also meant we could tweak kdelibs3 to integrate
better into a KDE 4 environment, e.g. we use the KDE 4 KHelpCenter for help,
the KDE 4 DrKonqi if a kdelibs3 app crashes etc.

> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=709681

As I said in another message, it's not systemd's fault if your fstab is
invalid. Fix your fstab.

(And systemd is even getting a workaround to accept such broken fstab
files.)

> and that it was planned for Fedora 14 and reverted at the last moment

I also consider that a mistake. The issues found during testing were all
fixed in time for the Fedora 14 release. Reverting the feature achieved
exactly nothing.

> and now a version later /run was introduced and discussed
> not long ago shows that there are some peopole in the fedora community
> with the only interest getting their stuff to as many users as possible
> without a real interest if they can live with it

How would you not be able to live with /run?

Kevin Kofler

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Old 06-13-2011, 11:11 AM
Alexander Kurtakov
 
Default WTF - SYSTEMD: Give us a option for upstart

On 01:59:43 PM Monday, June 13, 2011 Reindl Harald wrote:
> Am 13.06.2011 05:58, schrieb Kevin Kofler:
> > Reindl Harald wrote:
> >> and even on a new setup this should be a decision of the user
> >> at the very beginning what init-system he wants to us
> >
> > No, the choice of this kind of core under-the-hood system components
> > should be a decision of the distribution.
>
> thats freedom?

Yes, this is the freedom of the people that do the work to take some
decisions. Freedom is one of the rights for people that work on the
distribution too, don't you think so ?

>
> > To the user, it should be only an implementation detail. To the software
> > on the distribution, it should matter that they can rely on the core
> > system components being what they are and not have a user replace
> > something as central as the init system.
>
> and usually HE CAN NOT with the most new technologies introduced in Fedora
> the first two releases (PulseAudio, KDE 4.0...)
>
> > I think it makes no sense whatsoever to even OFFER upstart in F15+ as we
> > are doing. I don't see any valid reason why you'd use it over systemd.
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=709681
>
> because your fukcing holy cow is not well tested and stable enough
> and that it was planned for Fedora 14 and reverted at the last moment
> and now a version later /run was introduced and discussed
> not long ago shows that there are some peopole in the fedora community
> with the only interest getting their stuff to as many users as possible
> without a real interest if they can live with it
>
> > You complain about some bugs in systemd, those should be reported as bugs
> > and fixed.
>
> AND THAT IIS WHY YOZ SHOULD INSTALL SYSTEMD ONLY FOR NEW INSTALLATIONS TO
> GET A USERBASE FOR BUGREPORTS AND LAVE SINCE YEARS LUCKY USERS FUCK IN
> PEACE

And who is gonna do the testing of 2 distributions? Because testing 2 different
init systems is like testing 2 different distributions. Fedora QA are already
overloaded enough so we can't make that on them.
And who is gonna do the work on all the patches for working with and making
use of the features of the 2 different init systems? I would not do such thing
for my packages for sure.
As soon as some core component changes I'll support it only whenever I'm
involved. YES, THIS IS MY FREEDOM TO DECIDE WHAT TO DO!
Though I'll let everyone that wants to comaintain smth to do the work to
support alternatives but I'm still failing to see the army of contributors
just sitting and waiting for what to do. Until this happens people should
remember that the one that do the works has freedom too and if they don't like
smth they are free to come with better implementation and offer it.

Alexander Kurtakov
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:55 PM
"Jared K. Smith"
 
Default WTF - SYSTEMD: Give us a option for upstart

On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 3:14 AM, Reindl Harald <h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
> because your fukcing holy cow

This type of language is inappropriate for a Fedora mailing list.
Please tone down the language.

--
Jared Smith
Fedora Project Leader
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:50 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default WTF - SYSTEMD: Give us a option for upstart

On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 10:55:02AM -0400, Jared K. Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 3:14 AM, Reindl Harald <h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
> > because your fukcing holy cow
>
> This type of language is inappropriate for a Fedora mailing list.
> Please tone down the language.

I'd go further than that. Swearing is not inherently an issue. The
problem is abusive and aggressive behaviour. We expect participants in
the community to demonstrate appropriate levels of respect for one
another. Not agreeing with the rationale for a decision does not
inherently mean that the decision was inappropriate, and is certainly
not grounds for abusing those who made that decision. Let's remember
that these lists are one of the public faces of the project and try to
make sure we don't alienate potential contributors through our
behaviour, swearing or otherwise.

--
Matthew Garrett | mjg59@srcf.ucam.org
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