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Old 06-10-2011, 07:06 PM
mike cloaked
 
Default systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 5:58 PM, Denys Vlasenko <dvlasenk@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-06-10 at 16:11 +0200, Michal Schmidt wrote:
>> On 06/10/2011 03:59 PM, Steve Clark wrote:
>> > On 06/10/2011 09:36 AM, Michal Schmidt wrote:
>> >> systemd does not take the system down when it crashes. It catches the
>> >> signal, dumps core and freezes, but does not exit.
>> >> * * * * * * * * * * * * ^^^^^^^
>> > So you just end up with a "froze" system instead of a crashed system????
>>
>> No, only systemd freezes itself. Other processes continue running.
>
> systemd-26/src/main.c::crash() is the function which does it.
> Assuming it will not recurse by crashing again, of course. It calls
> log_error and assert_se, which go into log_dispatch(), which logs to
> syslog, may try to write to klog, and whatnot... this doesn't look
> too robust to me.
>
> But anyway. Assuming it successfully froze. Does it help?
> Yes. How much? Well, it's better than instant oops which happens
> when PID 1 exits, but reaping of processes reparented
> to init will stop, which, for example, makes the hang from pid
> exhaustion just a question of time.
>
> Ultimately, this stems from the decision to make systemd
> to run as PID 1 process. Are there technical reasons for this?
>

Would be nice to see the systemd author join this discussion?
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Old 06-10-2011, 07:13 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On 06/11/2011 12:36 AM, mike cloaked wrote:
> Would be nice to see the systemd author join this discussion?

I am sure you can get answers when someone is off vacation. However
what would be really nice is to redirect systemd discussions to its
upstream mailing list. Fedora devel is hardly the best place for it.

Rahul
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Old 06-10-2011, 08:44 PM
mike cloaked
 
Default systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Rahul Sundaram <metherid@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 06/11/2011 12:36 AM, mike cloaked wrote:
>> Would be nice to see the systemd author join this discussion?
>
> I am sure you can get answers when someone is off vacation. *However
> what would be really nice is to redirect systemd discussions to its
> upstream mailing list. *Fedora devel is hardly the best place for it.
>
> Rahul

OK I guess we'll get more discussion when he comes back from his
holiday - sorry I was unaware of the vacation but thanks for
clarifying.

I guess that your reference to moving to upstream indicates that
systemd is now sufficiently established that discussion of problems is
an upstream issue for bug triage/fixing? I would imagine that the user
list may have useful exchanges too but that it would be important to
get any issues moved upstream from there too? The most important
outcome is that bugs are fixed so whatever route is best for that
(including bugzilla of course) users should add input to. Hence links
to upstream for systemd are made available so that the best exposure
to recourse to resolution is optimised?

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Old 06-10-2011, 08:48 PM
mike cloaked
 
Default systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 9:44 PM, mike cloaked <mike.cloaked@gmail.com> wrote:

> I guess that your reference to moving to upstream indicates that
> systemd is now sufficiently established that discussion of problems is
> an upstream issue for bug triage/fixing? I would imagine that the user
> list may have useful exchanges too but that it would be important to
> get any issues moved upstream from there too? The most important
> outcome is that bugs are fixed so whatever route is best for that
> (including bugzilla of course) users should add input to. Hence links
> to upstream for systemd are made available so that the best exposure
> to recourse to resolution is optimised?
>

I also presume that by upstream you are referring to
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel

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Old 06-10-2011, 10:13 PM
"Clyde E. Kunkel"
 
Default systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On 06/10/2011 04:44 PM, mike cloaked wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Rahul Sundaram<metherid@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 06/11/2011 12:36 AM, mike cloaked wrote:
>>> Would be nice to see the systemd author join this discussion?
>>
>> I am sure you can get answers when someone is off vacation. However
>> what would be really nice is to redirect systemd discussions to its
>> upstream mailing list. Fedora devel is hardly the best place for it.
>>
>> Rahul
>
> OK I guess we'll get more discussion when he comes back from his
> holiday - sorry I was unaware of the vacation but thanks for
> clarifying.
>
> I guess that your reference to moving to upstream indicates that
> systemd is now sufficiently established that discussion of problems is
> an upstream issue for bug triage/fixing? I would imagine that the user
> list may have useful exchanges too but that it would be important to
> get any issues moved upstream from there too? The most important
> outcome is that bugs are fixed so whatever route is best for that
> (including bugzilla of course) users should add input to. Hence links
> to upstream for systemd are made available so that the best exposure
> to recourse to resolution is optimised?
>

I hope discussions continue on Fedora lists as well. systemd impacts
lots of fedora users who just read Fedora lists. I've subscribed to
gnome, network manager, btrfs, virt, lvm, selinux, anaconda, kickstart,
desktop, and etc. Sure, folks subscribe to more lists than that, but
when you can't spend much timre reading the lists, having discussions
concentrated in your distro of choice's lists frees up precious time to
actively participate in testing. As a Fedora user and tester it is far
easier to just peruse the Fedora lists. Once systemd settles in and is
no longer viewed with suspicion, then maybe add upstream for the rare issue.

Please don't be a wet blanket, folks, let the discussions continue here.

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Old 06-10-2011, 11:50 PM
Genes MailLists
 
Default systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On 06/10/2011 03:13 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:


> what would be really nice is to redirect systemd discussions to its
> upstream mailing list. Fedora devel is hardly the best place for it.
>
> Rahul

Beg to differ - rather vehemently too - politely but vehemently.

systemd is only available in fedora[1] - we are the test pigs for
better or for worse - and there are most certainly bugs in fedora's systemd.

Lets be blunt here - he pushed very very very hard on these very lists
to get systemd in - now its in F15 and there are problems - so no
punting please. Upstream and fedora are the same for systemd.

Some bugs like sendmail failing to start have been there since
September 2010 ( almost 9 months ... ) - people are reporting the same
issue on F15 in the fedora lists ... who is fixing this stuff ?

e.g.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=692008
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=633774


Ok so he's on vacation - this is a very core part of the OS - who is
backing him up I wonder? Who else is on the project?

Surely you're not saying there is no-one else working on systemd...
and when LP is away/busy nothing will get done ... otherwise I strongly
urge it be replaced by upstart asap.



gene/


[1] Yes he spoke with another distro - but no-one is using it. So its a
fedora only project until its picked up somewhere else - which has not
happened yet.
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Old 06-11-2011, 01:28 AM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

Denys Vlasenko wrote:
> Mem total:2035840 anon:431208 map:78924 free:419084
[snip]
> 1 15384 11856 13664 1340 11752 0 132 /sbin/init

So this singleton process is taking 0.76% of your RAM. What the heck are you
complaining about?

Kevin Kofler

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Old 06-11-2011, 02:31 AM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On 06/11/2011 05:20 AM, Genes MailLists wrote:
> Lets be blunt here - he pushed very very very hard on these very lists
> to get systemd in - now its in F15 and there are problems - so no
> punting please. Upstream and fedora are the same for syste

That is a gross over simplification. Fedora is just one of the many
distros integrating systemd and there are developers from other distros
including Novell involved in systemd and contributing to it. If we
start discussing every project where Red Hat is heaving involved, that
list is long

> [1] Yes he spoke with another distro - but no-one is using it. So its a
> fedora only project until its picked up somewhere else - which has not
> happened yet.

That's not true. Mandriva 2011 is already including it by default. So
is MeeGo. OpenSUSE has announced that it is using it by default in
their next release. Not to mention other distros who have included it
in their repos. It is far from a Fedora only project. The proper
place for general discussions about systemd is

http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel

Only Fedora specific bugs should be discussed here.

Rahul


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Old 06-11-2011, 08:04 AM
Peter Robinson
 
Default systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On 11 Jun 2011 03:35, "Rahul Sundaram" <metherid@gmail.com> wrote:

>

> On 06/11/2011 05:20 AM, Genes MailLists wrote:

> > * Lets be blunt here - he pushed very very very hard on these very lists

> > to get systemd in - now its in F15 and there are problems - so no

> > punting please. Upstream and fedora are the same for syste

>

> That is a gross over simplification. *Fedora is just one of the many

> distros integrating systemd and there are developers from other distros

> including Novell involved in systemd and contributing to it. *If we

> start discussing every project where Red Hat is heaving involved, that

> list is long

>

> > [1] Yes he spoke with another distro - but no-one is using it. So its a

> > fedora only project until its picked up somewhere else - which has not

> > happened yet.

>

> That's not true. * Mandriva 2011 is already including it by default. *So

> is MeeGo. *


actually meego will only ship it in 1.3 which will be out around the time of f16


Peter

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Old 06-11-2011, 08:17 AM
drago01
 
Default systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Denys Vlasenko <dvlasenk@redhat.com> wrote:
> Hi Lennart,
>
> systemd is eating a lot more memory than any other init process
> I ever played with.
>
> Granted, systemd does a bit more that "typical" init, but I think
> using *eleven plus megabytes* of malloced space is a bit much.

~11MB equals ~8 cents of RAM ... so meh.

If that's all you have to worry about its a good indication that they
aren't any real problems
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