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Old 04-17-2011, 05:11 PM
Xose Vazquez Perez
 
Default wireless-tools/net-tools are DEPRECATED

On 03/28/2011 09:00 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:

> Xose Vazquez Perez (xose.vazquez at gmail.com) said:
>> wireless-tools is deprecated since time ago. iw/rfkill
>> should be used instead it.
>
> Not to be entirely glib, but with this and the net-tools dependencies...
> we're taking patches. Mere notification is not as useful as
> contribution.

Some of them are so trivial, that it looks like nobody is working
on it:
$ rpm -ql initscripts | xargs egrep "/route |/ifconfig " --color
/etc/rc.d/init.d/network: /sbin/route add -$args
/etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-aliases:eval $(LC_ALL= LANG= /sbin/ifconfig | LC_ALL=C sed -n '
/etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-aliases: LC_ALL=C /sbin/route -n
/etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-aliases: /sbin/ifconfig $parent_device:${DEVNUM} down
/etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-aliases: /sbin/ifconfig $parent_device:$rdevip down
/etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-aliases: /sbin/ifconfig $DEVICE netmask $NETMASK broadcast $BROADCAST;
/etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-aliases: /sbin/ifconfig ${DEVICE} ${IPADDR} netmask ${NETMASK} broadcast ${BROADCAST}
/etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-aliases: /sbin/ifconfig $parent_device:${DEVNUM} down


net-tools is obsolete since '99 (Red Hat Linux 6.0 - Linux-2.2),
*12 years* ago!

It's a *shame* that all leading distributions, still rely on the
old *BSD way to do networking.
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Old 04-17-2011, 05:27 PM
Miloslav Trmańć
 
Default wireless-tools/net-tools are DEPRECATED

On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Xose Vazquez Perez
<xose.vazquez@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 03/28/2011 09:00 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
>> Not to be entirely glib, but with this and the net-tools dependencies...
>> we're taking patches. Mere notification is not as useful as
>> contribution.
>
> Some of them are so trivial, that it looks like nobody is working
> on it:
Have you actually looked at these uses?

> $ rpm -ql initscripts | xargs egrep "/route |/ifconfig " --color
> /etc/rc.d/init.d/network: ¬* ¬* ¬* ¬* ¬* ¬* ¬*/sbin/route add -$args

$args is arbitrary and user-specified, so if you want to replace this
line, you'd need to build something that transparently converts
arbitrary arguments to route(8) to arguments to ip(8) - but why bother
doing this at all, really? I can't see what would we gain by
replacing /sbin/route with /sbin/route-through-ip, and replacing a
dependency on net-tools with a dependency on net-tools-emulator.

> /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-aliases:eval $(LC_ALL= LANG= /sbin/ifconfig | LC_ALL=C sed -n '
ifup-aliases is a huge, complex shell script, and AFAIK the "ip" way
of doing things is rather different. Porting ifup-aliases line-by-line
is probably possible, but hardly the obviously right thing to do.

Both of these cases are strongly tied to the old syntax/semantics, and
AFAIK only rarely used.

> It's a *shame* that all leading distributions, still rely on the
> old *BSD way to do networking.
Does it actually hurt anything? I'd say that if these are the most
important uses you could find, the porting effort is basically
finished.
Mirek
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Old 04-24-2011, 02:42 AM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default wireless-tools/net-tools are DEPRECATED

Xose Vazquez Perez wrote:
> Some of them are so trivial, that it looks like nobody is working
> on it:
> $ rpm -ql initscripts | xargs egrep "/route |/ifconfig " --color
> /etc/rc.d/init.d/network: /sbin/route add -$args
> /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-aliases:eval $(LC_ALL= LANG=
> /sbin/ifconfig | LC_ALL=C sed -n '
> /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-aliases: LC_ALL=C /sbin/route -n
> /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-aliases:
> /sbin/ifconfig $parent_device:${DEVNUM} down
> /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-aliases:
> /sbin/ifconfig $parent_device:$rdevip down
> /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-aliases: /sbin/ifconfig
> $DEVICE netmask $NETMASK broadcast $BROADCAST;
> /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-aliases: /sbin/ifconfig
> ${DEVICE} ${IPADDR} netmask ${NETMASK} broadcast ${BROADCAST}
> /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-aliases:
/sbin/ifconfig
> $parent_device:${DEVNUM} down

All these hits are in the legacy "network" service or the legacy "ifup"
scripts which go with it.

Newsflash: the network service is DEPRECATED!!! That's what NetworkManager
is for.

> net-tools is obsolete since '99 (Red Hat Linux 6.0 - Linux-2.2),
> *12 years* ago!

And the network service is obsolete since at least Fedora 10, when Anaconda
started defaulting to NetworkManager. (The live images already did default
to NM at that point.)

> It's a *shame* that all leading distributions, still rely on the
> old *BSD way to do networking.

They don't. They use NetworkManager by default, which doesn't use any of the
scripts you mentioned there.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 04-24-2011, 03:25 AM
Chris Adams
 
Default wireless-tools/net-tools are DEPRECATED

Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@chello.at> said:
> Newsflash: the network service is DEPRECATED!!! That's what NetworkManager
> is for.

Newsflash: NM doesn't replace the network service yet. Maybe when NM
can do everything ifup/ifdown can do, the discussion about deprecation
can happen, but until then, please stop saying NM replaces the network
service.

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Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
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Old 04-24-2011, 05:30 AM
Farkas Levente
 
Default wireless-tools/net-tools are DEPRECATED

On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 05:25, Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net> wrote:
> Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@chello.at> said:
>> Newsflash: the network service is DEPRECATED!!! That's what NetworkManager
>> is for.
>
> Newsflash: NM doesn't replace the network service yet. *Maybe when NM
> can do everything ifup/ifdown can do, the discussion about deprecation
> can happen, but until then, please stop saying NM replaces the network
> service.

+1


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Old 04-24-2011, 05:34 AM
Reindl Harald
 
Default wireless-tools/net-tools are DEPRECATED

Am 24.04.2011 07:30, schrieb Farkas Levente:
> On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 05:25, Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net> wrote:
>> Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@chello.at> said:
>>> Newsflash: the network service is DEPRECATED!!! That's what NetworkManager
>>> is for.
>>
>> Newsflash: NM doesn't replace the network service yet. Maybe when NM
>> can do everything ifup/ifdown can do, the discussion about deprecation
>> can happen, but until then, please stop saying NM replaces the network
>> service.
>
> +1

+1

i am runnign 35 fedora-setups, 20 of them production and NM is the
frist thing which is disabled because it is useless for static
configs and "ifcfg-eth0", "ifcfg-eth0:1".... are much better
to handle becuase they normally touched once

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Old 04-24-2011, 04:35 PM
Ben Boeckel
 
Default wireless-tools/net-tools are DEPRECATED

Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net> wrote:
> Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@chello.at> said:
>> Newsflash: the network service is DEPRECATED!!! That's what NetworkManager
>> is for.
>
> Newsflash: NM doesn't replace the network service yet. Maybe when NM
> can do everything ifup/ifdown can do, the discussion about deprecation
> can happen, but until then, please stop saying NM replaces the network
> service.

One thing I liked a lot with my ifconfig scripts/wpa_supplicant pairing
is that when wireless is spotty, the network doesn't keep going up and
down. Instead, applications see lots of dropped packets. When
reauthentication can take 5 to 10s (or more), assuming that the
connection is steady when its just spotty can result in better behavior.
Also nice when quickly swapping ethernet cables. A "network is gone"
event gets different reactions from applications (particularly those
that are NM-aware which makes those applications MUCH more annoying to
deal with in these cases) than "some packets were lost". An option to
"persist connections despite something probably not actually existing"
would be nice for situations like this.

--Ben

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Old 04-24-2011, 05:10 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default wireless-tools/net-tools are DEPRECATED

Ben Boeckel wrote:
> One thing I liked a lot with my ifconfig scripts/wpa_supplicant pairing
> is that when wireless is spotty, the network doesn't keep going up and
> down. Instead, applications see lots of dropped packets. When
> reauthentication can take 5 to 10s (or more), assuming that the
> connection is steady when its just spotty can result in better behavior.
> Also nice when quickly swapping ethernet cables. A "network is gone"
> event gets different reactions from applications (particularly those
> that are NM-aware which makes those applications MUCH more annoying to
> deal with in these cases) than "some packets were lost". An option to
> "persist connections despite something probably not actually existing"
> would be nice for situations like this.

I've found NM to actually be quite tolerant of spotty wireless connections.
In fact, usually, it's me who triggers a reconnect (or if possible, a
connect to a different access point, e.g. when I'm at the university in a
shared building with the business university (WU), I try switching from
eduroam to eduroam-wu when reception of my university's eduroam is poor), NM
just happily stays "connected" even with 100% packet loss.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 04-24-2011, 05:13 PM
Ben Boeckel
 
Default wireless-tools/net-tools are DEPRECATED

Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@chello.at> wrote:
> I've found NM to actually be quite tolerant of spotty wireless connections.
> In fact, usually, it's me who triggers a reconnect (or if possible, a
> connect to a different access point, e.g. when I'm at the university in a
> shared building with the business university (WU), I try switching from
> eduroam to eduroam-wu when reception of my university's eduroam is poor), NM
> just happily stays "connected" even with 100% packet loss.

Ah, that's different than when I last used NM on my laptop due to these
issues (F13 beta-ish timeframe).

--Ben

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Old 04-24-2011, 06:52 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default wireless-tools/net-tools are DEPRECATED

On 04/24/2011 10:43 PM, Ben Boeckel wrote:
> Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@chello.at> wrote:
>> I've found NM to actually be quite tolerant of spotty wireless connections.
>> In fact, usually, it's me who triggers a reconnect (or if possible, a
>> connect to a different access point, e.g. when I'm at the university in a
>> shared building with the business university (WU), I try switching from
>> eduroam to eduroam-wu when reception of my university's eduroam is poor), NM
>> just happily stays "connected" even with 100% packet loss.
> Ah, that's different than when I last used NM on my laptop due to these
> issues (F13 beta-ish timeframe)

It isn't useful to talk about NM from that time period anymore. There
has been major rewrites of it and current NM is not even comparable
really. Try the latest and then offer comments.

Rahul

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