FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Redhat > Fedora Development

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 04-12-2011, 06:02 PM
Nathaniel McCallum
 
Default rfc/headsup: graphics driver packaging in F16+

On Tue, 2011-04-12 at 14:00 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-04-12 at 13:48 -0400, Nathaniel McCallum wrote:
> > On Tue, 2011-04-12 at 13:38 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> > > But then, if we had _that_, comps could grow a fourth class for
> > > "as-needed" and we'd just list all driver packages there, including cups
> > > and webcam drivers and etc. Install image creation would pull them all
> > > in; anaconda would filter the available as-needed's based on target
> > > hardware.
> > >
> > > In that scenario you'd still need to do manual selection of some driver
> > > packages for critpathness, but, okay.
> >
> > With this approach, you have lost a critical feature: the ability for
> > you to change your hardware (or move the software bits to a different
> > computer) and have everything automatically work.
>
> Assuming pk actually had this feature, the next time you booted pk would
> happily tell you about what driver you're missing.

*If* it booted to a sane state where pk could tell you this, then yes I
agree.

Nathaniel

--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 04-12-2011, 06:06 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default rfc/headsup: graphics driver packaging in F16+

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 01:48:19PM -0400, Nathaniel McCallum wrote:

> With this approach, you have lost a critical feature: the ability for
> you to change your hardware (or move the software bits to a different
> computer) and have everything automatically work.

You change the card, the system comes up in VESA, Packagekit (or
whatever) notices new hardware and installs the drivers. Seems pretty
automatic?

--
Matthew Garrett | mjg59@srcf.ucam.org
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 04-12-2011, 06:08 PM
Casey Dahlin
 
Default rfc/headsup: graphics driver packaging in F16+

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 02:01:26PM -0400, Nathaniel McCallum wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-04-12 at 13:57 -0400, Casey Dahlin wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 01:48:19PM -0400, Nathaniel McCallum wrote:
> > >
> > > With this approach, you have lost a critical feature: the ability for
> > > you to change your hardware (or move the software bits to a different
> > > computer) and have everything automatically work.
> > >
> > > Nathaniel
> >
> > You lose it for a couple of strange usecases though:
> >
> > 1) Moving from a card that is up to date in what it supports to an older
> > card that isn't (rare).
> >
> > 2) Moving from one crappy ancient card to another (plausible, but still
> > rare).
> >
> > The vesa driver should mean some workable video support in either case,
> > and from there, if we were really, truly concerned, we could detect the
> > need for the driver and prompt to install it. That's starting to sound
> > like the bad old days of kudzu though, and I'd be surprised if anyone
> > really felt this was worth that effort.
>
> I think losing it in those cases is probably acceptable. My thought is
> that the disk space for drivers is minimal, lets just support everything
> (or at least the current stuff) in a single install. My concern isn't
> moving to and/or between rare old cards. My concern is moving from
> nouveau to intel or radeon... The "big" drivers should definitely be
> installed on every system, regardless of its hardware.
>

I believe (and maybe I've read this thread to quickly) that that will
still be the case. Its only the drivers for old cards with smaller
feature sets that are being moved at alll.

--CJD
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 04-12-2011, 06:09 PM
Nathaniel McCallum
 
Default rfc/headsup: graphics driver packaging in F16+

On Tue, 2011-04-12 at 19:06 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 01:48:19PM -0400, Nathaniel McCallum wrote:
>
> > With this approach, you have lost a critical feature: the ability for
> > you to change your hardware (or move the software bits to a different
> > computer) and have everything automatically work.
>
> You change the card, the system comes up in VESA, Packagekit (or
> whatever) notices new hardware and installs the drivers. Seems pretty
> automatic?

Limited to video drivers? yes. I just can't help but think that some
will be unable to resist the temptation to do the same thing for
firmware. In this case, pk will happily notify you, but you won't have
access to the repo to handle the change to the new networking card, etc.

Nathaniel

--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 04-12-2011, 06:16 PM
Jeff Garzik
 
Default rfc/headsup: graphics driver packaging in F16+

On 04/12/2011 01:38 PM, Adam Jackson wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-04-12 at 12:23 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
>> Adam Jackson (ajax@redhat.com) said:
>>> So that's the rough plan. Comments appreciated if I'm overlooking
>>> anything.
>>
>> The question would be how we ensure that these additional drivers are in the
>> install image, or in the installed system, if necessary. Or do we not care
>> if they get vesa? How would users be informed/able to install drivers if
>> necessary? (I don't know that PK search is good here.)
>
> To a first approximation, I deeply do not care. If you're choosing to
> use an s3virge in 2011 you've already decided to make your life hard.


While I don't care about accelerated X support, this hardware darned
well better continue working in an "it works" 2D display mode. VESA or
whatever is fine.

Why?

Data centers have /plenty/ of ancient video solutions out there, and
basic video support is needed.

Jeff


--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 04-12-2011, 06:18 PM
Chris Adams
 
Default rfc/headsup: graphics driver packaging in F16+

Once upon a time, Nathaniel McCallum <nathaniel@natemccallum.com> said:
> With this approach, you have lost a critical feature: the ability for
> you to change your hardware (or move the software bits to a different
> computer) and have everything automatically work.

That has been the case off and on for a long time, with kernels and
glibc split for i386/i686, and then kernels for PAE. Old hardware is
always going to fall off the tail.

It isn't like the packages are going to be removed, and they'll probably
not get any less testing than they do today. Also, since VESA will
still be included, it should work on most any hardware.
--
Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 04-12-2011, 06:19 PM
Chris Adams
 
Default rfc/headsup: graphics driver packaging in F16+

Once upon a time, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@pobox.com> said:
> Data centers have /plenty/ of ancient video solutions out there, and
> basic video support is needed.

How many data centers run X on servers? I know I don't; they all boot
runlevel 3 and just have a serial console (KVM switches are for Windows
machines).
--
Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 04-12-2011, 06:20 PM
Nathaniel McCallum
 
Default rfc/headsup: graphics driver packaging in F16+

On Tue, 2011-04-12 at 19:06 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 01:48:19PM -0400, Nathaniel McCallum wrote:
>
> > With this approach, you have lost a critical feature: the ability for
> > you to change your hardware (or move the software bits to a different
> > computer) and have everything automatically work.
>
> You change the card, the system comes up in VESA, Packagekit (or
> whatever) notices new hardware and installs the drivers. Seems pretty
> automatic?

I should say that about 2.5 years ago I wrote a patch for xorg to print
out an inventory of the hardware a given driver supported.
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/commit/?id=8e368cf5b964f1d29fda0a463f9510457619b14d

The patch was subsequently removed by an overzealous committer who
thought it would be fun to remove useful functionality he thought xorg
didn't need anymore (name concealed to protect the guilty).

That patch above, or a similar version, could be used to automatically
generate the PK list from the binary at rpm build time, as well as be
useful in a variety of other cases.

Nathaniel

--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 04-12-2011, 06:21 PM
Nathaniel McCallum
 
Default rfc/headsup: graphics driver packaging in F16+

On Tue, 2011-04-12 at 13:18 -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Nathaniel McCallum <nathaniel@natemccallum.com> said:
> > With this approach, you have lost a critical feature: the ability for
> > you to change your hardware (or move the software bits to a different
> > computer) and have everything automatically work.
>
> That has been the case off and on for a long time, with kernels and
> glibc split for i386/i686, and then kernels for PAE. Old hardware is
> always going to fall off the tail.
>
> It isn't like the packages are going to be removed, and they'll probably
> not get any less testing than they do today. Also, since VESA will
> still be included, it should work on most any hardware.

Sure. To be blunt: I'm in support of the move, I just want to make sure
we think about the case of hardware changes and not boot to an unusable
system...

Nathaniel

--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 04-12-2011, 06:57 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default rfc/headsup: graphics driver packaging in F16+

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 02:09:06PM -0400, Nathaniel McCallum wrote:

> Limited to video drivers? yes. I just can't help but think that some
> will be unable to resist the temptation to do the same thing for
> firmware. In this case, pk will happily notify you, but you won't have
> access to the repo to handle the change to the new networking card, etc.

Upstream ship firmware as a single package, and I don't see us wanting
to change that.

--
Matthew Garrett | mjg59@srcf.ucam.org
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 05:49 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org