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Old 03-30-2011, 07:00 PM
Michael Cronenworth
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

John Reiser wrote:
> Please give specific examples that previously evaded the 'feature' process.

I'm a little fuzzy on the timelines of these changes so I might be one
release off, but here's two examples.

-Fedora 10 changed curl from using openssl to nss.
-Fedora 14 changed openldap from using openssl to nss.

Both times I had software I use break and only figured it out when I was
told the fix was to nss.

IMHO those two changes are rather large as they introduce different
behavior across a broad range of software. They have had negative
effects in my usage cases[1][2] and took months to resolve.

The libjpeg to libjpeg-turbo was a feature so it is not unreasonable to
expect similar changes to be considered a feature.

[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=500180
[2] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=636956
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:02 PM
Daniel J Walsh
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

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On 03/30/2011 04:59 PM, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, MichaƂ Piotrowski <mkkp4x4@gmail.com> said:
>> First, people are wondering if this change is compatible with some
>> obsolete specification, next people are wondering if this change is
>> compatible with distribution feature process. I repeat again, this is
>> not a feature this is evolution. Lennart uses a big hammer here, but
>> from a technical POV these changes makes sense.
>
> Please stop calling FHS obsolete, at least as long as the Fedora
> packaging guidelines say it should be followed.
>
> I think the problem here is how this was done, not as much what was
> done. Would it have been so much trouble to have discussed this in
> advance? The FHS allows dsitros to add additional top-level
> directories, but this was done by developers of a package, without any
> distro discussion. We're well past F15 Alpha and almost to Beta; IMHO a
> change like this should have been made sooner (or wait until next
> release). There may be things that the systemd developers didn't think
> about (what about SELinux policy for example; I haven't seen that
> mentioned).
>
We are scrambling to get the policies updated, but it would have been
nice to have more time.
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:08 PM
Peter Jones
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On 03/30/2011 07:54 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Heya,
>
> I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a
> directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later
> stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is.
>
> It's a fairly minor technical change, though presumably people consider
> this a bigger political change, so I guess this deserves an
> explanation:
>
> For quite a while programs involved with early boot used to place
> runtime data in /dev under numerous hidden dot directories. /dev/.udev
> was the first one, but over time this grew to at least /dev/.mdadm,
> /dev/.systemd, /dev/.mount, dracut, initscripts and more tools. (Other
> distros have even more) The reason they used directories there is that
> /dev was known to be a tmpfs and available from the first instant the
> machine was booted. /var/run otoh is only available very late at
> boot, since /var might reside on a separate file system.

Just for some perspective, before /dev/.udev we had /dev/.dhclient-leases
and before even that we had /initrd for quite some time.

There's nothing new under the sun.

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Old 03-31-2011, 11:13 AM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On 03/30/2011 03:21 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Wed, 30.03.11 15:08, Ralf Corsepius (rc040203@freenet.de) wrote:
>
>>
>> On 03/30/2011 02:30 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>>> On Wed, 30.03.11 18:04, Rahul Sundaram (metherid@gmail.com) wrote:
>>>
>>
>>> Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say "no
>>> other directories below / are allowed"? I can't find that. And hence
>>> this change is perfectly FHS compliant.
>>
>> It's in the preface of the root file system section:
>>
>> http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#THEROOTFILESYSTEM
>>
>> <cite>
>> Applications must never create or require special files or
>> subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS
>> hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package.
>> </cite>
>
> Well, we are not an "application", are we?

I feel you are violently not wanting to understand and prefer tearing
things into the absurd:

a) systemd is the application this all has begin with.
b) what else but applications are creating "run" files?

Ralf


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Old 03-31-2011, 11:14 AM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On 03/30/2011 04:12 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 30, 2011 04:05:27 PM Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 9:21 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>>> On Wed, 30.03.11 15:08, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>>>> On 03/30/2011 02:30 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 30.03.11 18:04, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say "no
>>>>> other directories below / are allowed"? I can't find that. And hence
>>>>> this change is perfectly FHS compliant.
>>>>
>>>> It's in the preface of the root file system section:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#THEROOTFILESYSTEM
>>>>
>>>> <cite>
>>>> Applications must never create or require special files or
>>>> subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS
>>>> hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package.
>>>> </cite>
>>>
>>> Well, we are not an "application", are we?
>>
>> I think, for the first time in Fedora history, I agree with Lennart.
>
> +1, me too ))
>
> R.
>
>> After reading the above reference, this does not seem like an FHS
>> violation. Even if it is, it is the FHS that needs to be updated.

Then you might be able to explain the difference between a script being
launched by systemd and any other arbitrary script?

I don't see any,
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Old 03-31-2011, 11:22 AM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On Thu, 31.03.11 13:13, Ralf Corsepius (rc040203@freenet.de) wrote:

> >> <cite>
> >> Applications must never create or require special files or
> >> subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS
> >> hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package.
> >> </cite>
> >
> > Well, we are not an "application", are we?
>
> I feel you are violently not wanting to understand and prefer tearing
> things into the absurd:
>
> a) systemd is the application this all has begin with.

systemd is part of the OS, it is the system. It's not an app running on
the OS. Firefox is an app.

> b) what else but applications are creating "run" files?

The system. dracut, systemd, udev, and so on -- which all are components
of the OS.

So, now I am a violent crack addicted rapist in your eyes. I am curious
what adjectives you think of next.

Lennart

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Old 04-01-2011, 03:32 AM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On 03/31/2011 01:22 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Thu, 31.03.11 13:13, Ralf Corsepius (rc040203@freenet.de) wrote:
>
>>>> <cite>
>>>> Applications must never create or require special files or
>>>> subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS
>>>> hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package.
>>>> </cite>
>>>
>>> Well, we are not an "application", are we?
>>
>> I feel you are violently not wanting to understand and prefer tearing
>> things into the absurd:
>>
>> a) systemd is the application this all has begin with.
>
> systemd is part of the OS, it is the system. It's not an app running on
> the OS. Firefox is an app.
Twisting words, again - To me, systemd is an application.

>> b) what else but applications are creating "run" files?
>
> The system. dracut, systemd, udev, and so on -- which all are components
> of the OS.
All applications.

> So, now I am a violent crack addicted rapist in your eyes. I am curious
> what adjectives you think of next.
Well, PC prohibits to pronounce what I actually think of your works.



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Old 04-01-2011, 07:07 AM
Marian Ganisin
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On Fri, Apr 01, 2011 at 05:32:04AM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 03/31/2011 01:22 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > The system. dracut, systemd, udev, and so on -- which all are components
> > of the OS.
> All applications.

Ralf, did anybody already asked you what do you understand under the term
'system'?

Did you answer?

If 'no' is the answer for both questions (otherwise please point me to
correct place), here it is:

What do you understand under the term 'system'?

It looks like your definition of 'system' could really differ from the
common one. "Everybody" understands init is part of *system*,
"everybody" understands initrd is part of *system*, "everybody"
understands udev is part of *system*. "Everybody" understands directory
used by these parts of system is *system* directory. Why don't you?

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Old 04-01-2011, 07:11 AM
Harald Hoyer
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

Am 01.04.2011 05:32, schrieb Ralf Corsepius:
> On 03/31/2011 01:22 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> So, now I am a violent crack addicted rapist in your eyes. I am curious
>> what adjectives you think of next.
> Well, PC prohibits to pronounce what I actually think of your works.

You are not only insulting Lennart, but all people involved in the design and
decision process for /run here. From now on you are on my /ignore list forever
and I will not feed you troll anymore.
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Old 04-01-2011, 08:11 AM
Reindl Harald
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

Am 01.04.2011 05:32, schrieb Ralf Corsepius:

>> So, now I am a violent crack addicted rapist in your eyes. I am curious
>> what adjectives you think of next

> Well, PC prohibits to pronounce what I actually think of your works

well, what have you ever done in your poor life?
please creep away and leave the list fuck in peace!

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