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Old 03-30-2011, 12:48 PM
Pierre-Yves Chibon
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 14:11 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 03/30/2011 02:10 PM, Michał Piotrowski wrote:
> > 2011/3/30 Ralf Corsepius<rc040203@freenet.de>:
> >> On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> >>> Heya,
> >>>
> >>> I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which
> establishes a
> >>> directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or
> later
> >>> stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why
> this is.
> >>>
> >>> It's a fairly minor technical change,
> >> It's a massive FHS violation
> > FHS has 7 years, must be updated.
> >
> >> => release blocker.
> > Flame!
> No, it's a no-go/no-way in most verbose form.

I have to applaud, you sent two emails and already go 11 reactions

Nice flame-war start !

Pierre
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:03 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On 03/30/2011 02:42 PM, Bryn M. Reeves wrote:
> On 03/30/2011 01:11 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> On 03/30/2011 02:10 PM, Michał Piotrowski wrote:
>>> 2011/3/30 Ralf Corsepius<rc040203@freenet.de>:
>>>> On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>>>>> Heya,
>>>>>
>>>>> I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a
>>>>> directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later
>>>>> stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a fairly minor technical change,
>>>> It's a massive FHS violation
>>> FHS has 7 years, must be updated.
>>>
>>>> => release blocker.
>>> Flame!
>> No, it's a no-go/no-way in most verbose form.
>>
> If strict FHS compliance was a release criteria it's hard to see how we'd have
> made it to F15 in the first place.
Well, the reasons why Fedora isn't FHS compliant to me are obvious.

> I also don't think you can really justify the "massive" qualifier in your
> assertion. The actual text of the (7 year old) FHS has this to say:
7 year old doesn't mean obsolete and doesn't mean to adopt any crack
ridden idea somebody comes up with.

Any ordinary Fedora contributor with a similar proposal would have been
"sent to hell".


> I find it interesting that you consider a breach of the "root directory
> pollution rule" sufficiently serious to be a release blocker
Correct.

Apart of this, it's waaaaaaaay too late in the release process to
implement this change for F15, IMNSHO.

> and yet you have
> apparently remained silent as all the abuses of the /dev directory that Lennart
> pointed out were merged in previous releases.
I have repeatedly spoken up - e.g. wrt. cgroup.

> Why is that those FHS violations are OK but adding a directory to / (in an
> obvious effort to address one of the shortcomings of the existing standard) is
> the end of the world as we know it?
>
> No standard is or even should be carved in stone for all eternity.
Right, but devs should ignore it or feel tempted to rape such a standard.

Ralf

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Old 03-30-2011, 01:04 PM
Alasdair G Kergon
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 08:36:38AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> No flames from me. This is a sensible, thought-through change with
> cross-distro buy-in and no major downsides. It is outside of the FHS, but is
> in the _spirit_ of it, and would fit into an updated release of the
> standard, if there ever were one.

Ack.

A sensible and long-overdue attempt to address one of the short-comings of the
standard.

If the FHS isn't updated to reflect this, then it's only making itself less
relevant.

(lvm2 now gains a proper new location for /etc/lvm/cache.)

Alasdair

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Old 03-30-2011, 01:05 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On 03/30/2011 02:36 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 01:54:30PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> The actual code changes we needed to implement this scheme were trivial
>> (basically, just bind mount /var/run and /var/lock instead of mounting two
>> new tmpfs' to them.), which is why we opted to do this so late in the F15
>> cycle. However, the political implications are much bigger I guess, so
>> let's see what a fantastic flamewar we can start with this on
>> fedora-devel now. Flame away!
>
> No flames from me. This is a sensible, thought-through change with
> cross-distro buy-in and no major downsides.

I could not disagree more.

> It is outside of the FHS,
It's a clear violation of the FHS.
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:09 PM
Reindl Harald
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

Am 30.03.2011 15:05, schrieb Ralf Corsepius:
>> No flames from me. This is a sensible, thought-through change with
>> cross-distro buy-in and no major downsides.
>
> I could not disagree more.

without any argument?

if all distributions agree with it where exactly do you have
a problem? After 7 years FHS should be updated to reflect
existing reality and FHS should not wait another 5 years
for some changes in theory and expect that AFTER this
new definition the work will start

where is your argument other than "i do not find the folder in FHS"?

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Old 03-30-2011, 01:20 PM
Alasdair G Kergon
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 03:05:35PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 03/30/2011 02:36 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > It is outside of the FHS,
> It's a clear violation of the FHS.

Indeed, but there really is no suitable FHS-compliant location for files
of these types, so we had no choice but to violate the standard up to
now: nothing has changed in this respect. As I see things, the proposal
is just to violate it in a much cleaner, co-ordinated and standardised
way.

Alasdair
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:38 PM
Xose Vazquez Perez
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

Russ herrold wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Mar 2011, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>
>> There are many directories already in Fedora that are not
>> defined by FHS and even though we have asked them to update
>> it (libexec, /selinux /sys etc), there is noone maintaining
>> it.

> This is stunningly untrue. I've worked for years in the
> fields of LSB, FHS and LANANA to make sure there are traceable
> paths for such requests. Post the URLs to your bugs in the
> LSB / LF tracker if you assert you have done such

like this?

Reported: 2004-01-29 http://bugs.freestandards.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:39 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On Wed, 30.03.11 15:03, Ralf Corsepius (rc040203@freenet.de) wrote:

> > I also don't think you can really justify the "massive" qualifier in your
> > assertion. The actual text of the (7 year old) FHS has this to say:
> 7 year old doesn't mean obsolete and doesn't mean to adopt any crack
> ridden idea somebody comes up with.

Thanks for implying we were addicted to crack. It really underlines your
arguments.

> Any ordinary Fedora contributor with a similar proposal would have been
> "sent to hell".

Uh? What are you implying here?

Note that I myself was actually leaning towards a different solution for
a long time, just so I don't have to deal with negative people like
you. But other folks were championing for /run (especially from Debian),
and they convinced me and the others with stakes in this, and so we
implemented this. This is how these things usually work: everybody can
make suggestions, and the best one which convinced the key people who
can implement something like this wins in the end. In this case the idea
was not mine. So really no need to imply my humble ideas were in any way
special here or had more weight than anybody else's, since well, this
one wasn't even mine.

> > No standard is or even should be carved in stone for all eternity.
> Right, but devs should ignore it or feel tempted to rape such a standard.

Wow, crack addicted rapists.

Die Wahl Deiner Worte adelt wahrlich Deine Gedanken!

Lennart

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Old 03-30-2011, 01:39 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On 03/30/2011 03:20 PM, Alasdair G Kergon wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 03:05:35PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> On 03/30/2011 02:36 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
>>> It is outside of the FHS,
>> It's a clear violation of the FHS.
>
> Indeed, but there really is no suitable FHS-compliant location for files
> of these types, so we had no choice but to violate the standard up to
> now: nothing has changed in this respect. As I see things, the proposal
> is just to violate it in a much cleaner, co-ordinated and standardised
> way.

How about /var/run ??

What would be wrong with it?


Or /var/lib/systemd ??

This would open up all liberties for systemd, what ever idea it may come
up with in future.

Ralf


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Old 03-30-2011, 02:25 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On Wed, 30.03.11 19:56, Rahul Sundaram (metherid@gmail.com) wrote:

>
> On 03/30/2011 07:00 PM, R P Herrold wrote:
> > This is stunningly untrue. I've worked for years in the
> > fields of LSB, FHS and LANANA to make sure there are traceable
> > paths for such requests. Post the URLs to your bugs in the
> > LSB / LF tracker if you assert you have done such
>
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=17060262&forum_id=3128
>
> http://bugs.freestandards.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101
>
> What have you or anyone else in FHS done about it? Who all are
> responsible What recent queries were answered? When was FHS last
> updated?

Yupp, my impression too is that FHS is pretty much dead.

On a more constructive note however I have now filed this bug asking for
updating of the FHS regarding /run:

http://bugs.freestandards.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718

Let's see if the FHS comes back from the dead!

Lennart

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