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Old 03-30-2011, 12:04 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Heya,
>
> I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a
> directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later
> stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is.
>
> It's a fairly minor technical change,

It's a massive FHS violation

=> release blocker.
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:14 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On Wed, 30.03.11 14:04, Ralf Corsepius (rc040203@freenet.de) wrote:

>
> On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > Heya,
> >
> > I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a
> > directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later
> > stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is.
> >
> > It's a fairly minor technical change,
>
> It's a massive FHS violation

How so?

FHS doesn't specify /selinux either. Or the old /cgroup. Or even /sys.

> => release blocker.

I love you, too.

Lennart

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Old 03-30-2011, 12:16 PM
Jiri Moskovcak
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On 03/30/2011 02:04 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> Heya,
>>
>> I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a
>> directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later
>> stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is.
>>
>> It's a fairly minor technical change,
>
> It's a massive FHS violation
>
> => release blocker.

It doesn't seem to break anything so even applications which use the old
ugly ways will still work in F15, so why this would be a blocker? Or am
I missing something?

J.
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:30 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On Wed, 30.03.11 18:04, Rahul Sundaram (metherid@gmail.com) wrote:

>
> On 03/30/2011 05:34 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> >> Heya,
> >>
> >> I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a
> >> directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later
> >> stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is.
> >>
> >> It's a fairly minor technical change,
> > It's a massive FHS violation
> >
> > => release blocker.
>
> There are many directories already in Fedora that are not defined by FHS
> and even though we have asked them to update it (libexec, /selinux
> /sys etc), there is noone maintaining it. Besides, FHS violations
> do not qualify as release blockers at all. At best, this is a dramatic
> overreaction and wishful thinking. If we have consensus between major
> distributions, that is the living standard compared to a old stale and
> unmaintained document. Anyway, thanks Lennart for taking the time to
> explain the change. It makes documentation much easier.

Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say "no
other directories below / are allowed"? I can't find that. And hence
this change is perfectly FHS compliant.

Lennart

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Old 03-30-2011, 12:34 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On 03/30/2011 05:34 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> Heya,
>>
>> I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a
>> directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later
>> stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is.
>>
>> It's a fairly minor technical change,
> It's a massive FHS violation
>
> => release blocker.

There are many directories already in Fedora that are not defined by FHS
and even though we have asked them to update it (libexec, /selinux
/sys etc), there is noone maintaining it. Besides, FHS violations
do not qualify as release blockers at all. At best, this is a dramatic
overreaction and wishful thinking. If we have consensus between major
distributions, that is the living standard compared to a old stale and
unmaintained document. Anyway, thanks Lennart for taking the time to
explain the change. It makes documentation much easier.

Rahul

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Old 03-30-2011, 12:44 PM
"Nicolas Mailhot"
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

Le Mer 30 mars 2011 14:04, Ralf Corsepius a écrit :
>
> On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> Heya,
>>
>> I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a
>> directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later
>> stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is.
>>
>> It's a fairly minor technical change,
>
> It's a massive FHS violation
>
> => release blocker.

The FHS is about having major distros agree about file locations, and
documenting the result. Which seems to be exactly what happened here.

Also the FHS is about progressively deprecating old quirks inherited from
complex *nix history (such as /usr/X11), and trying to converge on a simpler
consistent design. Again, this is exactly what happened.

Thank you very much Lennart for continuing the filesystem cleanup the FHS
initated but stopped doing years ago. Please make the effort to get the
changes published in a new FHS revision. It does not matter for hardcore
ditribution people, but it matters a lot for app people and ISVs.

Regards,

--
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:48 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On 03/30/2011 06:00 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:

> Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say "no
> other directories below / are allowed"? I can't find that. And hence
> this change is perfectly FHS compliant.

Added to the release notes

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Boot_Beat#.2Frun_directory

Tweak or change as necessary. Thanks.

Rahul

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Old 03-30-2011, 12:50 PM
"Nicolas Mailhot"
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

Le Mer 30 mars 2011 14:30, Lennart Poettering a écrit :
>

> Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say "no
> other directories below / are allowed"? I can't find that. And hence
> this change is perfectly FHS compliant.

%<----

Applications must never create or require special files or subdirectories in
the root directory. Other locations in the FHS hierarchy provide more than
enough flexibility for any package.

Tip Rationale


There are several reasons why creating a new subdirectory of the root
filesystem is prohibited:

It demands space on a root partition which the system administrator may
want kept small and simple for either performance or security reasons.

It evades whatever discipline the system administrator may have set up for
distributing standard file hierarchies across mountable volumes.

Distributions should not create new directories in the root hierarchy without
extremely careful consideration of the consequences including for application
portability.

%<----

Which is why, while I find this change generally positive, it really needs an
FHS update (might be a good occasion to remove old directory definitions which
have finally been deprecated those past years, and resolve /var/opt vs /srv
differences)

Regards,

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Old 03-30-2011, 01:08 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On 03/30/2011 02:30 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Wed, 30.03.11 18:04, Rahul Sundaram (metherid@gmail.com) wrote:
>

> Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say "no
> other directories below / are allowed"? I can't find that. And hence
> this change is perfectly FHS compliant.

It's in the preface of the root file system section:

http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#THEROOTFILESYSTEM

<cite>
Applications must never create or require special files or
subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS
hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package.
</cite>
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:18 PM
"Bryn M. Reeves"
 
Default What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?

On 03/30/2011 02:08 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 03/30/2011 02:30 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> On Wed, 30.03.11 18:04, Rahul Sundaram (metherid@gmail.com) wrote:
>>
>
>> Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say "no
>> other directories below / are allowed"? I can't find that. And hence
>> this change is perfectly FHS compliant.
>
> It's in the preface of the root file system section:
>
> http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#THEROOTFILESYSTEM
>
> <cite>
> Applications must never create or require special files or
> subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS
> hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package.
> </cite>

Fedora is a distribution, not an application. You neatly elided the following
paragraph that explicitly grants distributions the right to do this with careful
consideration. Well done.

Regards,
Bryn.
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