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Old 11-17-2010, 10:29 PM
Kevin Fenzi
 
Default more updates discussion

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 23:38:38 +0100
François Cami <fdc-lists@fcami.net> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 11:04 PM, Kevin Kofler
> <kevin.kofler@chello.at> wrote:
> > Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> >> So, there are no folks in the KDE sig using F13 anymore?
> >>
> >> Perhaps call for testers in the users / kde lists?
> >
> > I think this issue goes far, far beyond just KDE. There are
> > packages which have few users even for Fedora n, let alone n-1.
>
> That may be pure speculation, but it seems that Fedora contributors
> testing updates only use Fedora n because they tend to upgrade as soon
> as the next release is available. We have a few choices, including:
> * actively deciding that n-1 will receive less updates than n (good, I
> think, because the worst kinks should be hammered out of a distro in 6
> months anyway, so that leaves more or less security).
> * pushing updates for n-1 no matter what testing they've had (bad).
> Any other option I haven't thought of?

Some more:

* Try and increase number of people testing N-1/N-2 updates.

a) Be more active about asking people to test new versions in support
channels (#fedora/users list/forums) and have an easy to understand
landing point for them on the wiki to find out more.

b) Try and solicit testers in area specific channels (kde lists,
proftpd users, etc). "Anyone here using X on fedora? here's how you can
help us out: ..."

c) Provide better test cases to allow casual users to test the updates
in vm's or the like.

* Stop shipping N-2 / N-1 sooner. If no one is using them, why ship
them?

* focus on 'high/important' updates with what testing we have. Would
need some way to note or mark them however.

> > Yet another example of the update processes delaying an update for
> > ages is the recent libgsf update
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/libgsf-1.14.18-1.fc13 ,
> > which was stuck for a month until the maintainer sent a nagmail to
> > this mailing list (a method to get provenpackager attention which
> > doesn't really scale). (libgsf is critpath due to being a
> > dependency of something critical, so it gets the extra-hardcore
> > policy.)
>
> The bug was only opened more than four months after f13 was released.
> My interpretation is that not many users were impacted, and therefore
> living another month with it was acceptable.

This update could have also used much better notes.

"This update fixes a problem in zip output that could cause abiword and
gnumeric to make documents that cannot be read by programs not using
this same version of libgsf. Please test by:
*saving a document in gnumeric or abiword in ODF format
*try opening the doc in another fedora version or other distro or in
openoffice and confirm the document is read correctly"

Given that I would have been happy to spend some time testing it.
Given that the update had a bug titled: "Please update to at least
1.14.18" and there were no notes, I thought it was simply a request
for a new minor version.

kevin
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Old 11-18-2010, 12:36 PM
François Cami
 
Default more updates discussion

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Kevin Fenzi <kevin@scrye.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 23:38:38 +0100
> François Cami <fdc-lists@fcami.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 11:04 PM, Kevin Kofler
>> <kevin.kofler@chello.at> wrote:
>> > Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>> >> So, there are no folks in the KDE sig using F13 anymore?
>> >>
>> >> Perhaps call for testers in the users / kde lists?
>> >
>> > I think this issue goes far, far beyond just KDE. There are
>> > packages which have few users even for Fedora n, let alone n-1.
>>
>> That may be pure speculation, but it seems that Fedora contributors
>> testing updates only use Fedora n because they tend to upgrade as soon
>> as the next release is available. We have a few choices, including:
>> * actively deciding that n-1 will receive less updates than n (good, I
>> think, because the worst kinks should be hammered out of a distro in 6
>> months anyway, so that leaves more or less security).
>> * pushing updates for n-1 no matter what testing they've had (bad).
>> Any other option I haven't thought of?
>
> Some more:
>
> * Try and increase number of people testing N-1/N-2 updates.
>
> a) Be more active about asking people to test new versions in support
> channels (#fedora/users list/forums) and have an easy to understand
> landing point for them on the wiki to find out more.
>
> b) Try and solicit testers in area specific channels (kde lists,
> proftpd users, etc). "Anyone here using X on fedora? here's how you can
> help us out: ..."
>
> c) Provide better test cases to allow casual users to test the updates
> in vm's or the like.

Or add more test automation? We've already got a framework for that.

> * Stop shipping N-2 / N-1 sooner. If no one is using them, why ship
> *them?

I mentioned that Fedora contributors who provide update feedback might
not be using n-1, that doesn't mean we don't have n-1 users.
Users who care enough about updates to send feedback probably also
upgrade every 6 months to run the latest version of stuff. Yet this is
not the case of the average user.

> * focus on 'high/important' updates with what testing we have. Would
> *need some way to note or mark them however.

Or move to security-only for n-1?
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Old 11-18-2010, 05:01 PM
Till Maas
 
Default more updates discussion

On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 04:29:25PM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote:

> c) Provide better test cases to allow casual users to test the updates
> in vm's or the like.

Or provide a full remote test environment where people can log in to,
get notified about neglected updates and presented with test cases and
can perform them, e.g. via a VNC session for graphical updates. This
will remove all the hassle to maintain a test environment for potential
testers and will only require them to perform tasks that need to be done
individually and manually.

Another option is btw. to require testing only for updates of packages
that have a dedicated team of testers. E.g. people who want certain
packages to be tested properly can subscribe to them and test them and
as a benefit they won't get any broken updates.

Regards
Till
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