The new Update Acceptance Criteria are broken (was: Heads Up - New Firefox update)

11-01-2010, 01:54 AM

Adam Williamson wrote:
> I already wrote this to -test a couple of days ago:
>
> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2010-October/095135.html
>
> and we're discussing it there. I think the thread demonstrates things
> tend to go much more constructively if you avoid throwing words like
> 'blatant' and 'failure' and 'needlessly' around. We designed a policy,
> put it into effect, now we're observing how well it works and we can
> modify its implementation on the fly. It doesn't need to be done in an
> adversarial spirit.

There's exactly one constructive thing to do, it's repealing this set of
policies (Critical Path and Update Acceptance Criteria) in its entirety.

An update should go stable when the maintainer says so, karma should be
purely informational feedback for the maintainer.

Kevin Kofler

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e Gest=26=23227;o de Moda traz mais uma s=26=23233;rie de artigos, sobre=
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x; clear: both;=22></DIV><A =0D=0Astyle=3D=22COLOR: =23369; FONT-S=
IZE: 16px; TEXT-DECORATION: none=22 =0D=0Ahref=3D=22http://fabiomarcelo=2E=
com/blog/index=2Ephp/2010/08/entrevista-site-excluvivo-=25e2=2580=2593-in=
verno-2011-destacasaltos-medianos/=22 =0D=0A_mce_style=3D=22font-size: 16=
px; text-decoration: none; color: =23369;=22 =0D=0A_mce_href=3D=22http://=
fabiomarcelo=2Ecom/blog/index=2Ephp/2010/08/entrevista-site-excluvivo-=25=
e2=2580=2593-inverno-2011-destacasaltos-medianos/=22>Entrevista Site Excl=
uvivo =26=238211; =0D=0AInverno 2011 destaca saltos medianos</A></=
DIV></DIV>=0D=0A<DIV>Entrevista concedida =0D=0Apelo Designer F=26=23225;bio Ma=
rcelo Esp=26=23237;ndula =26=238211; Graduado em Design de Cal=26=23231;a=
dos e =0D=0AP=26=23243;s-Graduado Especialista em Cria=26=23231;=26=23227=
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ep=26=23243;rter do Jornal e Portal Exclusivo e Revistas Lan=26=23231;ame=
ntos, sobre tend=26=23234;ncias =0D=0Aem saltos e solados para o outono i=
nverno 2011=2E</DIV>=0D=0A<DIV style=3D=22HEIGHT: 30px; CLEAR: bot=
h=22 =0D=0A_mce_style=3D=22height: 30px; clear: both;=22></DIV>=0D=0A=
<DIV><A style=3D=22COLOR: =23369; FONT-SIZE: 16px; TEXT-DECORATION: none=22=
=0D=0Ahref=3D=22http://fabiomarcelo=2Ecom/blog/index=2Ephp/2010/07/tipos=
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tion: none; color: =23369;=22 =0D=0A_mce_href=3D=22http://fabiomarcelo=2E=
com/blog/index=2Ephp/2010/07/tipos-de-calcados-combi/=22>Tipos de cal=26=23=
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lo =0D=0AEsp=26=23237;ndula =26=238211; Designer de Cal=26=23231;ados: Gr=
aduado em Design de Cal=26=23231;ados e Especialista =0D=0Aem Cria=26=232=
31;=26=23227;o e Gest=26=23227;o de Moda, traz a descri=26=23231;=26=2322=
7;o e as principais caracter=26=23237;sticas do =0D=0Acal=26=23231;ado Co=
mbi, bem como imagens do modelo=2E</DIV>=0D=0A<DIV style=3D=22HEIG=
HT: 30px; CLEAR: both=22 =0D=0A_mce_style=3D=22height: 30px; clear: both;=
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TEXT-DECORATION: none=22 =0D=0Ahref=3D=22http://fabiomarcelo=2Ecom/blog/=
index=2Ephp/2010/07/entrevista-para-o-site-vila-fashion-terra/=22 =0D=0A_=
mce_style=3D=22font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none; color: =23369;=22 =
=0D=0A_mce_href=3D=22http://fabiomarcelo=2Ecom/blog/index=2Ephp/2010/07/e=
ntrevista-para-o-site-vila-fashion-terra/=22>Entrevista para o site Vila =
=0D=0AFashion =26=238211; Terra</A></DIV>=0D=0A<DIV>Entrevista concedida=
=0D=0Apelo Designer F=26=23225;bio Marcelo Esp=26=23237;ndula =26=238211=
; Graduado em Design de Cal=26=23231;ados e =0D=0AP=26=23243;s-Graduado E=
specialista em Cria=26=23231;=26=23227;o e Gest=26=23227;o de Moda, para =
Tissiane Vicentin do =0D=0Ablog Vila Fashio =26=238211; Terra, que ajudou=
a compor a mat=26=23233;ria, =26ldquo;Mulheres julgam pelos =0D=0Asapato=
s?=26rdquo;</DIV>=0D=0A<DIV style=3D=22HEIGHT: 30px; CLEAR: both=22=
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DIV><A style=3D=22COLOR: =23369; FONT-SIZE: 16px; TEXT-DECORATION: none=22=
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ation: none; color: =23369;=22 =0D=0A_mce_href=3D=22http://fabiomarcelo=2E=
com/blog/index=2Ephp/2010/07/tipos-de-calcados-patten/=22>Tipos de cal=26=
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Marcelo =0D=0AEsp=26=23237;ndula =26=238211; Designer de Cal=26=23231;ado=
s: Graduado em Design de Cal=26=23231;ados e Especialista =0D=0Aem Cria=26=
=23231;=26=23227;o e Gest=26=23227;o de Moda, traz a descri=26=23231;=26=23=
227;o e as principais caracter=26=23237;sticas do =0D=0Acal=26=23231;ado =
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th;=22></DIV>=0D=0A<DIV><A style=3D=22COLOR: =23369; FONT-SIZE: 16=
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ados-split-toe/=22>Tipos de cal=26=23231;ados =26=238211; Split =0D=0AToe=
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1;ados e Especialista =0D=0Aem Cria=26=23231;=26=23227;o e Gest=26=23227;=
o de Moda, traz a descri=26=23231;=26=23227;o e as principais caracter=26=
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delo=2E</DIV>=0D=0A<DIV style=3D=22HEIGHT: 30px; CLEAR: both=22 =0D=
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oration: none; color: =23369;=22 =0D=0A_mce_href=3D=22http://fabiomarcelo=
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de cal=26=23231;ados =26=238211; =0D=0AWinklepicker</A></DIV>=0D=0A=
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l=26=23231;ados: Graduado em Design de Cal=26=23231;ados e Especialista =0D=
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69; FONT-SIZE: 16px; TEXT-DECORATION: none=22 =0D=0Ahref=3D=22http://fabi=
omarcelo=2Ecom/blog/index=2Ephp/2010/07/tipos-de-calcados-boudoir/=22 =0D=
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07/tipos-de-calcados-boudoir/=22>Tipos de Cal=26=23231;ados =26=238211; =0D=
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;ndula =26=238211; Designer de Cal=26=23231;ados: Graduado em Design de C=
al=26=23231;ados e Especialista =0D=0Aem Cria=26=23231;=26=23227;o e Gest=
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ns do modelo=2E</DIV>=0D=0A<DIV style=3D=22HEIGHT: 30px; CLEAR: bo=
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<DIV><A style=3D=22COLOR: =23369; FONT-SIZE: 16px; TEXT-DECORATION: none=22=
=0D=0Ahref=3D=22http://fabiomarcelo=2Ecom/blog/index=2Ephp/2010/07/limpe=
za-dos-calcados-de-couro/=22 =0D=0A_mce_style=3D=22font-size: 16px; text-=
decoration: none; color: =23369;=22 =0D=0A_mce_href=3D=22http://fabiomarc=
elo=2Ecom/blog/index=2Ephp/2010/07/limpeza-dos-calcados-de-couro/=22><FON=
T =0D=0Acolor=3D=230000ff size=3D1 face=3D=22Microsoft Sans Serif=22>Limp=
eza dos Cal=26=23231;ados de =0D=0ACouro</A></DIV>=0D=0A<DIV><FONT=
color=3D=23000000 size=3D1 face=3D=22Microsoft Sans Serif=22>O designer =
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1;ados e p=26=23243;s-gradua=26=23231;=26=23227;o Especialista em Cria=26=
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e cuidados com os cal=26=23231;ados de couro=2E</DIV>=0D=0A<DIV s=
tyle=3D=22HEIGHT: 30px; CLEAR: both=22 =0D=0A_mce_style=3D=22height: 30px=
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NT-SIZE: 16px; TEXT-DECORATION: none=22 =0D=0Ahref=3D=22http://fabiomarce=
lo=2Ecom/blog/index=2Ephp/2010/06/revista-lancamentos-industria-junho-201=
0/=22 =0D=0A_mce_style=3D=22font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none; color=
: =23369;=22 =0D=0A_mce_href=3D=22http://fabiomarcelo=2Ecom/blog/index=2E=
php/2010/06/revista-lancamentos-industria-junho-2010/=22>Revista Lan=26=23=
231;amentos Ind=26=23250;stria =26=238211; =0D=0Ajunho 2010</A></D=
IV>=0D=0A<DIV>Entrevista concedida =0D=0Apelo Designer F=26=23225;bio Marcelo E=
sp=26=23237;ndula =26=238211; Graduado em Design de Cal=26=23231;ados e =0D=
=0AP=26=23243;s-Graduado Especialista em Cria=26=23231;=26=23227;o e Gest=
=26=23227;o de Moda, para Roberta Gerhard =0D=0AD=26=23246;ring rep=26=23=
243;rter do Jornal e Portal Exclusivo e Revistas Lan=26=23231;amentos, so=
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SPA

11-01-2010, 04:13 PM

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam@redhat.com> wrote:
> Saying 'oh dear, this might not work, we'd better not try' is rarely a
> good approach, IMHO. It's better to try things, with the proviso that
> you accept when they aren't working and withdraw or modify them.

I would agree with this, if the "let's try them and see what happens"
approach to a process makes it a point to set up a set of specific
conditions before putting a new process in place which latch a
withdraw of the process. "Hey we are going to try this.. and if this
or this other things happens..then we are going to stop doing this and
put our heads together and have a little re-think about modifying the
process"

-jef
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11-01-2010, 05:23 PM

Adam Williamson wrote:
> On the other hand, other scenarios were also brought up, which have not
> come to pass - for instance, the same thing happening to Fedora 13 or
> Fedora 14.

Nonsense. We just do not have enough evidence yet to show such things
happening for F13 and F14. They CAN, and IMHO WILL, happen, e.g.:
* Will a critical security fix for Konqueror get karma as quickly as the one
for Firefox did? (This is especially relevant considering that some people
want to put the whole KDE workspace into critpath. But even non-critpath
updates need karma to get pushed.)
* Would that Firefox update have gotten karma that quickly without the
nagmail to the devel ML? Do you think the approach of sending nagmail
scales?

And at least for F14 development, there have been other, less critical
failures, which I've already pointed out in the respective threads.

> If we had simply accepted the predictions of doom and not implemented the
> policy at all, we would be without its benefits for the development of F13
> and F14.

What benefits? I see only problems, in fact the very ones I've warned about
right from the beginning.

Kevin Kofler

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11-01-2010, 05:26 PM

Adam Williamson wrote:
> The policies prevented us from shipping a number of completely broken
> updates, which is exactly what they were intended to do. I don't have a
> command handy to do a search for rejected proposed critpath updates for
> F14, but if you figure it out, you can see the precise results of the
> policy there.

They also let several completely broken updates through and then delayed the
FIXES for those updates, exactly as I had been warning about all the time.

For example, my firstboot update which was required to make the Xfce spin
work again (there was an additional problem with the LXDE spin, but that one
was present both before and after that update, and could only be noticed
after that update was pushed) got delayed.

> The fact is that they did predict a failure which has not, in fact, come
> to pass (neither F13 nor F14 have long queues of old critpath updates).

Even ONE old critpath update is a failure.

Kevin Kofler

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11-01-2010, 05:27 PM

Adam Williamson wrote:
> I disagree. The evidence you cite does not support this conclusion. We
> implemented the policies for three releases. There are significant
> problems with one release. This does not justify the conclusion that the
> policies should be entirely repealed.

The evidence in THIS thread is for one release, but the same problems have
been found everywhere. In different degrees of severity, sure, but they're
there.

Kevin Kofler

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