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Old 10-20-2010, 12:02 PM
Jaroslav Reznik
 
Default HEADS UP: KDE/Qt update intentions in Fedora 13 (RFC)

Hi (from the evil KDE SIG;-),
we're going to update KDE Plasma Workspaces in Fedora 13 to 4.5.x series. It
took some time but we're now pretty sure that it's in a good condition.

The question is (we agreed on KDE SIG meeting yesterday) - should we update Qt
to 4.7 too or build KDE stack with current 4.6 series? As there are a few Qt
packages outside of KDE SIG/Qt maintainers scope, we'd like to hear any
objections against update - bugs we can fix etc. Qt 4.7 is quite well tested,
thanks to work on Fedora 14 (Qt 4.7 is already included) and a lot of users are
actually using this combination in Fedora 13.

If I put on my Fedora WebKit SIG hat - there are two big +++ for update:
1. newer QtWebKit makes browser's user experiences much more better
2. it's going to be much more easier to backport security issues to Fedora 13
and we care of security issues - WebKit can be quite vulnerable...

Most changes in Qt 4.7 are in mobile development area and new features like Qt
Quick.

On the other hand, it could slow down KDE update and it will need more rebuilds.

Is it worth? Any objections from Qt devels? Please comment...

Jaroslav
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Old 10-20-2010, 02:41 PM
Jochen Schmitt
 
Default HEADS UP: KDE/Qt update intentions in Fedora 13 (RFC)

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Hash: SHA1

On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 14:02:49 +0200, you wrote:

>The question is (we agreed on KDE SIG meeting yesterday) - should we update Qt
>to 4.7 too or build KDE stack with current 4.6 series? As there are a few Qt
>packages outside of KDE SIG/Qt maintainers scope, we'd like to hear any
>objections against update - bugs we can fix etc. Qt 4.7 is quite well tested,
>thanks to work on Fedora 14 (Qt 4.7 is already included) and a lot of users are
>actually using this combination in Fedora 13.

Is there a version of PyQt built agains qt-4.7. If so, I can
build my application which are depending on it agains the new
release. I think there should no issue to build my applications
agains a new qt release.

Best Regards:

Jochen Schmitt

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Old 10-21-2010, 08:54 PM
Jochen Schmitt
 
Default HEADS UP: KDE/Qt update intentions in Fedora 13 (RFC)

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On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 16:41:16 +0200, you wrote:

>Is there a version of PyQt built agains qt-4.7. If so, I can
>build my application which are depending on it agains the new
>release. I think there should no issue to build my applications
>agains a new qt release.

Sorry, the appication which I'M maintaining use the obsolte qt3,
so this sentence make no sense.

Due a google search I have found a bug agains stellarium which
should be fixed after upgrading to qt-4.7.

Best Regards:

Jochen Schmitt

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Old 10-24-2010, 06:24 PM
Kalev Lember
 
Default HEADS UP: KDE/Qt update intentions in Fedora 13 (RFC)

On 10/20/2010 03:02 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> The question is (we agreed on KDE SIG meeting yesterday) - should we
> update Qt to 4.7 too or build KDE stack with current 4.6 series? As
> there are a few Qt packages outside of KDE SIG/Qt maintainers scope,
> we'd like to hear any objections against update - bugs we can fix
> etc. Qt 4.7 is quite well tested, thanks to work on Fedora 14 (Qt 4.7
> is already included) and a lot of users are actually using this
> combination in Fedora 13.

KDE is pretty much self contained, whereas a Qt upgrade affects a much
larger number of packages. I don't think updating Qt to a new major
version in a stable Fedora release is a good idea; it just causes too
much churn.

I am sure there will be bugs in other packages which need to be fixed to
work with Qt 4.7. Some of these bugs are going to be fixed in next
upstream releases, so people would just need to upgrade their packages
and build for F13. Other packages are going to work fine, but fail to
rebuild against Qt 4.7 if someone tries (consider security updates: a
build which starts suddenly failing when you need to get a two-line
security fix quickly out is not so fun).

I personally would not call it a stable release any more: a release
where lots of the apps need to be rebuilt, and lots of other apps need
to go through integration testing again is not a stable release. It's a
rolling development release.

In my opinion a Qt 4.7 update is pure F-14 material. As you say, it is
working pretty well on Fedora 14 which is going to be released very
soon, so why is there need for Qt 4.7 on F-13?

Thanks for all the nice work on Fedora 14 by the way!

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Old 10-26-2010, 04:33 AM
Kevin Fenzi
 
Default HEADS UP: KDE/Qt update intentions in Fedora 13 (RFC)

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 21:24:30 +0300
Kalev Lember <kalev@smartlink.ee> wrote:

> On 10/20/2010 03:02 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> > The question is (we agreed on KDE SIG meeting yesterday) - should we
> > update Qt to 4.7 too or build KDE stack with current 4.6 series? As
> > there are a few Qt packages outside of KDE SIG/Qt maintainers scope,
> > we'd like to hear any objections against update - bugs we can fix
> > etc. Qt 4.7 is quite well tested, thanks to work on Fedora 14 (Qt
> > 4.7 is already included) and a lot of users are actually using this
> > combination in Fedora 13.
>
> KDE is pretty much self contained, whereas a Qt upgrade affects a much
> larger number of packages. I don't think updating Qt to a new major
> version in a stable Fedora release is a good idea; it just causes too
> much churn.

...snip...

I agree with Kalev here. Qt upgrade in a stable release is to be
avoided unless there's some severe bug or security issue that can't be
backported.

kevin
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Old 10-26-2010, 04:58 AM
Manuel Escudero
 
Default HEADS UP: KDE/Qt update intentions in Fedora 13 (RFC)

2010/10/25 Kevin Fenzi <kevin@scrye.com>


On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 21:24:30 +0300

Kalev Lember <kalev@smartlink.ee> wrote:



> On 10/20/2010 03:02 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:

> > The question is (we agreed on KDE SIG meeting yesterday) - should we

> > update Qt to 4.7 too or build KDE stack with current 4.6 series? As

> > there are a few Qt packages outside of KDE SIG/Qt maintainers scope,

> > we'd like to hear any objections against update - bugs we can fix

> > etc. Qt 4.7 is quite well tested, thanks to work on Fedora 14 (Qt

> > 4.7 is already included) and a lot of users are actually using this

> > combination in Fedora 13.

>

> KDE is pretty much self contained, whereas a Qt upgrade affects a much

> larger number of packages. I don't think updating Qt to a new major

> version in a stable Fedora release is a good idea; it just causes too

> much churn.



...snip...



I agree with Kalev here. Qt upgrade in a stable release is to be

avoided unless there's some severe bug or security issue that can't be

backported.



kevin


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I have KDE 4.5.2 in my Fedora 13 wich as far as I understand uses the last

version of Qt, the computer is working Flawlessly
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Old 10-26-2010, 08:00 AM
Jaroslav Reznik
 
Default HEADS UP: KDE/Qt update intentions in Fedora 13 (RFC)

On Tuesday, October 26, 2010 06:33:09 am Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 21:24:30 +0300
>
> Kalev Lember <kalev@smartlink.ee> wrote:
> > On 10/20/2010 03:02 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> > > The question is (we agreed on KDE SIG meeting yesterday) - should we
> > > update Qt to 4.7 too or build KDE stack with current 4.6 series? As
> > > there are a few Qt packages outside of KDE SIG/Qt maintainers scope,
> > > we'd like to hear any objections against update - bugs we can fix
> > > etc. Qt 4.7 is quite well tested, thanks to work on Fedora 14 (Qt
> > > 4.7 is already included) and a lot of users are actually using this
> > > combination in Fedora 13.
> >
> > KDE is pretty much self contained, whereas a Qt upgrade affects a much
> > larger number of packages. I don't think updating Qt to a new major
> > version in a stable Fedora release is a good idea; it just causes too
> > much churn.
>
> ...snip...
>
> I agree with Kalev here. Qt upgrade in a stable release is to be
> avoided unless there's some severe bug or security issue that can't be
> backported.

Top problem is QtWebKit - it's practically impossible to backport security
issues and as everybody knows - WebKit is security issue itself... It's really
time consuming task. We hoped we can get standalone QtWebKit by F14/Qt 4.7 but
upstream is unable to allocate enough resources to support it now.

We're even considering possibility to split QtWebKit from main Qt package and
build it over the older Qt releases but don't like this idea - it probably will
bring much more issues than fix (older Qt releases should be supported but no-one
tests it probably, so problems can't be avoided here).

For Qt itself - once QtWebKit will be separated, need for update would go to
zero... As the most work is done now on mobile devices support. Only one
interesting feature for Fedora users has been completed - Qt Quick - it opens a
lot of new possibilities for rich desktop application development and I think it
should be path for Fedora too (ala for installer, firstboot, some welcome screen
etc.).

So with WebKit SIG hat - newer QtWebKit is the must now.

Jaroslav

> kevin

--
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Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 602 797 774
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Old 10-26-2010, 08:04 AM
Jaroslav Reznik
 
Default HEADS UP: KDE/Qt update intentions in Fedora 13 (RFC)

On Tuesday, October 26, 2010 06:58:52 am Manuel Escudero wrote:
> 2010/10/25 Kevin Fenzi <kevin@scrye.com>
>
> > On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 21:24:30 +0300
> >
> > Kalev Lember <kalev@smartlink.ee> wrote:
> > > On 10/20/2010 03:02 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> > > > The question is (we agreed on KDE SIG meeting yesterday) - should we
> > > > update Qt to 4.7 too or build KDE stack with current 4.6 series? As
> > > > there are a few Qt packages outside of KDE SIG/Qt maintainers scope,
> > > > we'd like to hear any objections against update - bugs we can fix
> > > > etc. Qt 4.7 is quite well tested, thanks to work on Fedora 14 (Qt
> > > > 4.7 is already included) and a lot of users are actually using this
> > > > combination in Fedora 13.
> > >
> > > KDE is pretty much self contained, whereas a Qt upgrade affects a much
> > > larger number of packages. I don't think updating Qt to a new major
> > > version in a stable Fedora release is a good idea; it just causes too
> > > much churn.
> >
> > ...snip...
> >
> > I agree with Kalev here. Qt upgrade in a stable release is to be
> > avoided unless there's some severe bug or security issue that can't be
> > backported.
> >
> > kevin
> >
> > --
> > devel mailing list
> > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
>
> I have KDE 4.5.2 in my Fedora 13 wich as far as I understand uses the last
> version of Qt, the computer is working Flawlessly

Problem is not KDE itself but there are some more Qt apps in Fedora. And we want
to be sure these apps are not affected by update. We are practically 100% sure
(as we have a quite good process behind) - but you never know, so we asked for
help. And we can help in case of issues. Final Qt is know for 100% ABI (not
snapshots ) compatibility, it was commercial product one year ago...

Jaroslav
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Old 10-26-2010, 05:01 PM
Lars Seipel
 
Default HEADS UP: KDE/Qt update intentions in Fedora 13 (RFC)

On Sunday 24 October 2010 20:24:30 Kalev Lember wrote:
> KDE is pretty much self contained, whereas a Qt upgrade affects a much
> larger number of packages. I don't think updating Qt to a new major
> version in a stable Fedora release is a good idea; it just causes too
> much churn.

Nokia managed to upgrade Qt to 4.7 in their Maemo distribution and it got
pushed to all devices without causing any problems so far. Their standards for
avoiding churn are pretty high and their update scheme is extremely
conservative for stable releases. Nevertheless they updated Qt. But they have
a pretty good reason for doing that (aligning with future versions of MeeGo
and Symbian). So what does a F13 user gain from an upgrade? Is it worth the
risks?

F13 isn't what bleeding-edge users are likely to run in the future. Those can
easily upgrade to F14 and enjoy the latest stuff. So it's not like they are
forced to run a periodical broken rawhide with no security support if they
want recent software. I like the idea of Fn getting major updates whereas Fn-1
(that's what F13 is very soon) only gets those updates which are needed for
fixing bugs and security issues.

So if the open issues regarding QtWebkit can be solved I agree that leaving Qt
at 4.6.x is just fine. If not there ain't much choice as it is pretty much
guaranteed that Webkit will have security issues which are mandatory to fix. If
upstream only supports 4.7 and backporting isn't an option (which seems to be
the case according to jreznik) Qt 4.6 has to go unless some other solution can
be implemented before F13 goes EOL.

Lars
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Old 10-26-2010, 06:34 PM
Peter Robinson
 
Default HEADS UP: KDE/Qt update intentions in Fedora 13 (RFC)

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Lars Seipel <lars.seipel@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday 24 October 2010 20:24:30 Kalev Lember wrote:
>> KDE is pretty much self contained, whereas a Qt upgrade affects a much
>> larger number of packages. I don't think updating Qt to a new major
>> version in a stable Fedora release is a good idea; it just causes too
>> much churn.
>
> Nokia managed to upgrade Qt to 4.7 in their Maemo distribution and it got
> pushed to all devices without causing any problems so far. Their standards for
> avoiding churn are pretty high and their update scheme is extremely
> conservative for stable releases. Nevertheless they updated Qt. But they have
> a pretty good reason for doing that (aligning with future versions of MeeGo
> and Symbian). So what does a F13 user gain from an upgrade? Is it worth the
> risks?

QT isn't the default toolkit in Maemo and it was only introduced at
all in the PR1.2 release which only came out around 3-4 months ago so
its not a core part of their UI experience on maemo.

So that's not really a good argument for upgrading it in F-13.

Peter
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