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Old 10-11-2010, 05:16 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

Matthias Clasen (mclasen@redhat.com) said:
> That is certainly a big part of the problem. Anaconda does a _ton_ of
> crap that only very few users care about. And keeping all these minority
> features from falling apart is leaving you no time to polish the user
> experience for the large majority of users.

Correct. And any time it's suggested that certain parts of that crap
be removed to streamline things, people come screaming. (The discussion
about pruning the install methods is the one that comes to mind...
mm, nfsiso and hard drive installs.)

Bill
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Old 10-11-2010, 05:18 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

Chris Lumens (clumens@redhat.com) said:
> > - downloads updates in parallel too
>
> Package updates?

1) Given that it's using yum, downloading multiple things in parallel
would need to be fixed there.
2) If it means downloading packages in the background while it does
other tasks, given that package selection is the final task in the
current workflow, it would require reordering the workflow to be
beneficial. (Which becomes a memory usage tradeoff.)

Bill
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Old 10-11-2010, 05:26 PM
James Laska
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

On Mon, 2010-10-11 at 13:16 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> Matthias Clasen (mclasen@redhat.com) said:
> > That is certainly a big part of the problem. Anaconda does a _ton_ of
> > crap that only very few users care about. And keeping all these minority
> > features from falling apart is leaving you no time to polish the user
> > experience for the large majority of users.
>
> Correct. And any time it's suggested that certain parts of that crap
> be removed to streamline things, people come screaming. (The discussion
> about pruning the install methods is the one that comes to mind...
> mm, nfsiso and hard drive installs.)

The permutations are exhaustive.

https://www.redhat.com/archives/anaconda-devel-list/2010-May/msg00305.html

Thanks,
James
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Old 10-11-2010, 05:27 PM
Jos Vos
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 01:07:26PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:

> That is certainly a big part of the problem. Anaconda does a _ton_ of
> crap that only very few users care about. And keeping all these minority
> features from falling apart is leaving you no time to polish the user
> experience for the large majority of users.

I do not see why we should remove functionality (and almost everything
is there for a good reason) to "polish the user experience". I do not
even see that the latter is needed (the things mentioned in the initial
mail we really minor things and/or probably quite easy to add), but
that's maybe my fault as a hard-core UNIX guy...

I recently had to install a SLES system for some experimental reason
and ended up with a screwed-up system (read: MBR), probably because
the user experience was so polished that it didn't want to ask me
the things it *should* have asked .

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Old 10-11-2010, 05:31 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 11:41:13 +0100,
"Richard W.M. Jones" <rjones@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> Some of the things it does which are IMHO better:
>
> - starts disk formatting / copying / installing in parallel
> with asking user questions

I think that is a misfeature. I don't want anything irreversible to be done
until I say go.
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Old 10-11-2010, 05:44 PM
Chris Adams
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

Once upon a time, Bruno Wolff III <bruno@wolff.to> said:
> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 11:41:13 +0100,
> "Richard W.M. Jones" <rjones@redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> > Some of the things it does which are IMHO better:
> >
> > - starts disk formatting / copying / installing in parallel
> > with asking user questions
>
> I think that is a misfeature. I don't want anything irreversible to be done
> until I say go.

You know that Fedora has done partitioning/mkfs about halfway through
the install for a while now, right? I don't see why there would be a
problem with letting that run in the background while continuing through
the questions.
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I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
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Old 10-11-2010, 05:51 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 12:44:49 -0500,
Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net> wrote:
> >
> > I think that is a misfeature. I don't want anything irreversible to be done
> > until I say go.
>
> You know that Fedora has done partitioning/mkfs about halfway through
> the install for a while now, right? I don't see why there would be a
> problem with letting that run in the background while continuing through
> the questions.

I forget which stuff gets done afterwards, since I haven't done a fresh install
for a while now. (I mostly do yum upgrades and play with live USB images.)
But I do remember a clear no/no go point where disk drive file systems get
formatted. Depending on the file systems being used that can take a little
bit of time to complete, but is short compared to the rest of the install.
I tend to do install all of the games, so my installs may take longer than
average. I also always do custom disk layouts, so I might see things a bit
different from people that don't do that.
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Old 10-11-2010, 05:51 PM
Gilboa Davara
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

On Mon, 2010-10-11 at 12:09 -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
> On Mon, 2010-10-11 at 17:39 +0200, Gilboa Davara wrote:
>
> > Comparing the Ubuntu 10.04 DVD installer (which I use a couple of weeks
> > ago) to Fedora 13 DVD installer is like comparing the Cessna to a Boeing
> > 747.
> > Sure, both can accomplish the same task. Read: transporting people from
> > one airport to another, but lets see you try transporting 400 peoples
> > from London to NY using a Cessna...
> >
> > The same logic applies to the Ubuntu installer: As long as you require a
> > fairly basic -desktop- configuration (Read: No fancy storage, no LVM, no
> > fancy setup source [nfs, dvd, http], -very- basic encryption, standard
> > software set and repository selection, etc), the Ubuntu installer is a
> > great tool, but once you need something complex, you're screwed.
>
> That's all true. I've found the Ubuntu installer looks /very/ polished
> and nice for very common install cases, but I always use LVM on every
> install that I do, and last time I did a VM install of Ubuntu, I had to
> switch to a VT and get LVM sorted on the command line. Not super user
> friendly as compared with Anaconda. Other installers were even more of a
> joke doing this stuff. Tried doing LVM on Gentoo? Things like LVM and
> VNC do really matter, and not just for "Enterprise" users. You don't
> need to use LVM w/wo RAID, you can just do bare partitions if you don't
> care about being able to do anything useful with your disks at all

Amen to that.
Given the absurdly cheap price of HD these days, I usually opt for LVM
over software RAID1 / RAID5 on each and every workstation machine I
install.
Achieving the same using the Ubuntu installer would have required a lot
of manual mdadm and lvm pv/vg/lv** commands. (Let alone their basic disk
partitioning tool)

... In their race for Joe-six-pack and Apple like polish, Ubuntu gave up
on many Linux core capabilities. Hopefully Fedora will -not- follow
suite.

- Gilboa

- Gilboa

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Old 10-11-2010, 05:57 PM
seth vidal
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

On Mon, 2010-10-11 at 13:18 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> Chris Lumens (clumens@redhat.com) said:
> > > - downloads updates in parallel too
> >
> > Package updates?
>
> 1) Given that it's using yum, downloading multiple things in parallel
> would need to be fixed there.


We have an open rfe for related things - we're hoping to combine two
rfe's into one:

1. have the pkg/metadata downloads run in a different process in a
different context - for selinux
2. have each repo have its own downloader process which can handle
however many pkgs/metadata at a time that downloader process can cope
with.

If someone wants to work on that come by #yum

-sv



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Old 10-11-2010, 07:44 PM
Jon Masters
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

On Mon, 2010-10-11 at 12:51 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 12:44:49 -0500,
> Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think that is a misfeature. I don't want anything irreversible to be done
> > > until I say go.
> >
> > You know that Fedora has done partitioning/mkfs about halfway through
> > the install for a while now, right? I don't see why there would be a
> > problem with letting that run in the background while continuing through
> > the questions.
>
> I forget which stuff gets done afterwards, since I haven't done a fresh install
> for a while now. (I mostly do yum upgrades and play with live USB images.)
> But I do remember a clear no/no go point where disk drive file systems get
> formatted. Depending on the file systems being used that can take a little
> bit of time to complete, but is short compared to the rest of the install.
> I tend to do install all of the games, so my installs may take longer than
> average. I also always do custom disk layouts, so I might see things a bit
> different from people that don't do that.

In fairness to Rich, I think it's easy to get carried away with how
technicall better we are, but we shouldn't totally devalue the impact of
the shiny gloss on some users, reviews, and on general perception.

I used to be technical editor for a Linux magazine and I've read more
than my fair share of reviews of distributions over the years (and
written some too, it has to be admitted). Here's how it seems to go all
too often in general: 10% background, 30-40% installation, 20% what got
installed, then everything else. It's because reviewers are busy, and
don't have time to know a community - so first impressions count. And
Ubuntu is "known to be cool", so they get extra points in any case.

Sadly enough, this means that a shiny Ubuntu installer is to the whole
distribution what GNOME shell is to the GNOME project. It doesn't matter
if you've got a lot of bells and whistles underneath, or what you can
do, if you don't look pretty while you do it. It's just the reality. I
would venture that one of the reasons Rich sent his mail originally is
that he's aware of this mentality and pointing out its effects.

Jon.


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