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Old 10-11-2010, 03:02 PM
"Richard W.M. Jones"
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 10:37:15AM -0400, Peter Jones wrote:
> On 10/11/2010 10:21 AM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 09:51:41AM -0400, Josh Boyer wrote:
> >> I would like to see you create a Fedora Remix spin with this change to
> >> illustrate the benefits. That way we can evaluate feasibility and
> >> overall value add before we dive head first into it across the whole
> >> project.
> >
> > Proving what? You can just imagine what a rebranded Ubuntu installer
> > that installed Fedora would look like. My point anyway is that we
> > could look at Ubuntu for ideas, because the first point of contact
> > with users is now very smooth and (maybe) first impressions matter.
>
> Do you seriously believe that we don't look at other OS installers,
> including Ubuntu's, for ideas?

That's not obvious to me, no.

Rich.

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Old 10-11-2010, 03:11 PM
Chris Lumens
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

> - downloads updates in parallel too

Package updates?

> - uses IP geolocation to guess the user's timezone and keyboard
> settings (it's been 100% correct for me each time)

We can do this, it's just never really been brought up. I'd like to
rework a lot of the l10n stuff anyway, there just never seems to be
time.

> - suggests a username and hostname based on the user's real name
> (Mac OS X's installer also does this -- it's a nice touch)

If DNS knows a hostname, we will suggest that. Of course it's not
foolproof.

mgracik is working on the username suggestion thing already.

> Thoughts? Can we switch to their installer?

No.

- Chris
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Old 10-11-2010, 03:39 PM
Gilboa Davara
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

On Mon, 2010-10-11 at 11:41 +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> I installed and played with Ubuntu 10.10 over the weekend (in a VM),
> and I have to say that their installer is very smooth indeed. It's
> starting to make anaconda look distinctly clunky.
>
> Some of the things it does which are IMHO better:
>
> - starts disk formatting / copying / installing in parallel
> with asking user questions
>
> - downloads updates in parallel too
>
> - uses IP geolocation to guess the user's timezone and keyboard
> settings (it's been 100% correct for me each time)
>
> - suggests a username and hostname based on the user's real name
> (Mac OS X's installer also does this -- it's a nice touch)
>
> This is in contrast to anaconda (certainly from the live CD install)
> which seems to be a usability no-go area.
>
> Thoughts? Can we switch to their installer?
>
> Rich.
>

Comparing the Ubuntu 10.04 DVD installer (which I use a couple of weeks
ago) to Fedora 13 DVD installer is like comparing the Cessna to a Boeing
747.
Sure, both can accomplish the same task. Read: transporting people from
one airport to another, but lets see you try transporting 400 peoples
from London to NY using a Cessna...

The same logic applies to the Ubuntu installer: As long as you require a
fairly basic -desktop- configuration (Read: No fancy storage, no LVM, no
fancy setup source [nfs, dvd, http], -very- basic encryption, standard
software set and repository selection, etc), the Ubuntu installer is a
great tool, but once you need something complex, you're screwed.

- Gilboa

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Old 10-11-2010, 03:53 PM
Michał Piotrowski
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

2010/10/11 Richard W.M. Jones <rjones@redhat.com>:
>
> I installed and played with Ubuntu 10.10 over the weekend (in a VM),
> and I have to say that their installer is very smooth indeed. ┬*It's
> starting to make anaconda look distinctly clunky.
>
> Some of the things it does which are IMHO better:
>
> ┬*- starts disk formatting / copying / installing in parallel
> ┬* with asking user questions
>
> ┬*- downloads updates in parallel too
>
> ┬*- uses IP geolocation to guess the user's timezone and keyboard
> ┬* settings (it's been 100% correct for me each time)
>
> ┬*- suggests a username and hostname based on the user's real name
> ┬* (Mac OS X's installer also does this -- it's a nice touch)
>
> This is in contrast to anaconda (certainly from the live CD install)
> which seems to be a usability no-go area.
>
> Thoughts?

Which of these functions can not be implemented in anaconda?

>┬*Can we switch to their installer?

Does it support text based minimal install?

>
> Rich.
>

Regards,
Michal
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Old 10-11-2010, 03:58 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 05:53:20PM +0200, Michał Piotrowski wrote:

> Does it support text based minimal install?

debian-installer? Yes.

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Old 10-11-2010, 04:09 PM
Jon Masters
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

On Mon, 2010-10-11 at 17:39 +0200, Gilboa Davara wrote:

> Comparing the Ubuntu 10.04 DVD installer (which I use a couple of weeks
> ago) to Fedora 13 DVD installer is like comparing the Cessna to a Boeing
> 747.
> Sure, both can accomplish the same task. Read: transporting people from
> one airport to another, but lets see you try transporting 400 peoples
> from London to NY using a Cessna...
>
> The same logic applies to the Ubuntu installer: As long as you require a
> fairly basic -desktop- configuration (Read: No fancy storage, no LVM, no
> fancy setup source [nfs, dvd, http], -very- basic encryption, standard
> software set and repository selection, etc), the Ubuntu installer is a
> great tool, but once you need something complex, you're screwed.

That's all true. I've found the Ubuntu installer looks /very/ polished
and nice for very common install cases, but I always use LVM on every
install that I do, and last time I did a VM install of Ubuntu, I had to
switch to a VT and get LVM sorted on the command line. Not super user
friendly as compared with Anaconda. Other installers were even more of a
joke doing this stuff. Tried doing LVM on Gentoo? Things like LVM and
VNC do really matter, and not just for "Enterprise" users. You don't
need to use LVM w/wo RAID, you can just do bare partitions if you don't
care about being able to do anything useful with your disks at all

Jon.


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Old 10-11-2010, 04:14 PM
John Reiser
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

On 10/11/2010 03:41 AM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:

> Some of the things [Ubuntu 10.10 installer] does which are IMHO better:
>
> - starts disk formatting / copying / installing in parallel
> with asking user questions
>
> - downloads updates in parallel too

What was the wall-clock duration from "Go!" to done?
Should be about 140 seconds for a 32X CD-ROM: (700MB / 5MB/s).
{Fetch_from_media_or_download, and uncompress_package_to_pieces_in_RAMfs}
parallelizes almost perfectly with package install, even with only one CPU.

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Old 10-11-2010, 04:29 PM
Liang Suilong
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

I think anaconda is better than ubuntu installer.*
Ubuntu installer does not support LVM and RAID. I need these features.*
Anaconda does not easily support upgrading from internet. It is quite regretful.*



On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:14 AM, John Reiser <jreiser@bitwagon.com> wrote:


On 10/11/2010 03:41 AM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:



> Some of the things [Ubuntu 10.10 installer] does which are IMHO better:

>

> *- starts disk formatting / copying / installing in parallel

> * *with asking user questions

>

> *- downloads updates in parallel too



What was the wall-clock duration from "Go!" to done?

Should be about 140 seconds for a 32X CD-ROM: (700MB / 5MB/s).

{Fetch_from_media_or_download, and uncompress_package_to_pieces_in_RAMfs}

parallelizes almost perfectly with package install, even with only one CPU.



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Old 10-11-2010, 04:29 PM
Liang Suilong
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

I think anaconda is better than ubuntu installer.*
Ubuntu installer does not support LVM and RAID. I need these features.*
Anaconda does not easily support upgrading from internet. It is quite regretful.*



On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:14 AM, John Reiser <jreiser@bitwagon.com> wrote:


On 10/11/2010 03:41 AM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:



> Some of the things [Ubuntu 10.10 installer] does which are IMHO better:

>

> *- starts disk formatting / copying / installing in parallel

> * *with asking user questions

>

> *- downloads updates in parallel too



What was the wall-clock duration from "Go!" to done?

Should be about 140 seconds for a 32X CD-ROM: (700MB / 5MB/s).

{Fetch_from_media_or_download, and uncompress_package_to_pieces_in_RAMfs}

parallelizes almost perfectly with package install, even with only one CPU.



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My Page: http://www.liangsuilong.info
Fedora Project Contributor -- Packager && Ambassador


https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Liangsuilong


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Old 10-11-2010, 05:07 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default Ubuntu 10.10's installer looks rather nice

On Mon, 2010-10-11 at 10:48 -0400, Chris Lumens wrote:
> > Useless waste of time. Just grab Ubuntu iso and see a stunning gap in
> > both technology and usability between anaconda and their own
> > installed.
>
> Does the Ubuntu installer support installing to iscsi? Multipath?
> CCISS? Fully automated installation? Install over VNC? Installation
> from NFS, ISO on NFS, ISO on HD? Live images on USB keys? Driver
> disks?
>
> Do you have any idea how much crap anaconda really does?

That is certainly a big part of the problem. Anaconda does a _ton_ of
crap that only very few users care about. And keeping all these minority
features from falling apart is leaving you no time to polish the user
experience for the large majority of users.

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